Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival
The Ohio Lesbian Festival is open to transwomen, so why all the fuss over the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival? Why Camp Trans and Transwomen Belong Here? Why the trans-activist pressure guilt-trips on Michfest performers to stop playing at MWMF?
The biggest reason why male-to-female transwomen want in at MWMF instead of just going to OLF where they are included, is specifically because the intent of the Fest is a barrier; a barrier which must be overcome by any means.
The Age of Discovery: Exploration of the secret and the unknown is its own reward
It has been my experience that men are (much) worse than women when it comes to a personal sense of entitlement and inclusion. In my experience, many, if not most activisting transwomen bring that sense of entitlement with them into their woman-identities.
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield
Transwomen belong here
Transwomen want in to Michfest, specifically because they weren’t invited. The festival and The Land it takes place upon is a space to be explored, marked out, fought for and over, and ultimately conquered.
Roadtrip! In search of a mysterious location known as: “The Land”
Have you seen an all-female gathering in these parts?
If you have ever been socialized as a boy from birth to adulthood, it is very easy to understand where transwomen are coming from, and why it is such a big deal that Lisa Vogel be forced to submit to their demands.
Yeah, I am going to have to demand that you gender heathens all convert to Trans* or else transphobia. Which means that you will go to hell and burn in a fire
Remember, military training and military culture are a part of many trans women’s narratives. Some of us have experience in the Army, Marines, Air Force, even Navy SEALs. Trust us, when it comes to trans-activism, we know how to do war.
Sir! Good news to report. Indigo Girls, Hunter Valentine, and Lea DeLaria have surrendered to hurt feels trans-activism. It is only a matter of time before Lisa Vogel capitulates and Michfest falls.
Once we’ve colonized MWMF it will be considered a “glorious victory for trans inclusion” an achievement to boast of and tell future transwomen about. How we bravely fought and beat the bigoted and ignorant FAB women and took over their space by making them invite us. We sure taught them a lesson! Social justice ftw!
Colonization of Michfest: Forcing the “T” onto GLBT whether you like it or not. We can do it!
Sorry about your socialization!
Male socialization: yeah pretty much like this
Shhhhh!
Plastic Girl 
I don’t care much about Michfest but I do care about the way radfems portray women who dare disagree with them as victims “programmed” or “conquered” or whatever by men. (I do not, of course, include situations when women actually ARE victims, by means of violence or threats and arguably – the degree here is a separate discussion – economic control).
You do have a right to your view re the aims of activisting trans women. It might have merit, too. But I think you crossed a line when you speak about natal women who disagree with the radfem perspective as “surrendering”.
(“Indigo Girls, Hunter Valentine, and Lea DeLaria have surrendered to hurt feels trans-activism.”)
They are not surrendering. They have exactly the same right to a view as you do. Unless, of course, you can show that their statements were results of any threats (whether physical, boycott, etc) made to them by anyone else.
Not that you could not have avoided this statement while still making the point about the trans women (in which case I wouldn’t even bother replying). Not that you could not have at least said they were “fooled”, which would accept they made a decision though insist they were misinformed. You could have done all that but you chose to deny their agency directly, to paint them as helpless surrendering victims.
THIS is the problem here. The denied agency is *not* of trans women, but natal women. The view that a woman’s view is necessarily derived from a man’s is called, surprise, misogyny. Not trans-whatever, just misogyny.
These women make their livelihoods as performers. The only way to surrender with dignity when your means of feeding yourself and family is threatened by male-socialized activists is to say “I’m sorry, I was wrong, and I am bowing out. Sorry for the tears I caused”
These performers had no choice.
I”ve seen this in my life in politics enough times. Make someone’s life hell through keyboard social justicing and if you can make them afraid of losing their friends, their constituents, their connections, their livelihoods, their security, and their sanity, and you will coax out a public apology and “I’m bowing out now, I am deeply sorry for my errors, having learned my lessons and wiser for my enrichment”
That kind of apology is a trope unto itself now.
Now, exactly how could a small bunch of trans activists, in themselves, jeopardize the livelihoods of well known performers? Who would listen to them in deciding whether to attend a gig or buy a track?
The trans activists did not “conquer” the performers in anyway as they simply had no means of doing so. It can be seen differently if we include actual mainstream feminists in the pressure, but those are not trans activists and, in fact, are mostly natal women.
The dirty secret of TERF propaganda is that it represents only an isolated margin of feminism (and not even all of radical feminism). Though, of course, as any Bolshevik style group, they will present themselves as the “true and unadulterated” and the others as “corrupted by the oppressors” (the Bolsheviks used the words “petty bourgeois”).
In this particular instance the TERF view is even worse than their allies in the right wing. The allies will probably call those performers “slits who promote a satanic lifestyle” but this statement, as it is, does not actually deny that they are human beings and make their own decisions.
I am going to assume you don’t know about the 2011 OUT!wear transjacking.
Anti-Trans Company Producing PFLAG Merchandise
http://www.bilerico.com/2011/07/anti-trans_company_producing_pflag_merchandise.php
OUT!wear Pridewear Selling Anti-Trans Woman T-shirts!
http://transgender.livejournal.com/2490694.html
Apologize for selling anti-trans shirts and apparel
http://www.change.org/en-CA/petitions/outwear-pridewear-apologize-for-selling-anti-trans-shirts-and-apparel
I sent an email to LGBT clothes supplier OUT!wear today:
Hi,
I was looking at your site at http://www.outwear.com/ as I understand it caters to the LGBT community, and your main page seems to confirm that the clothes sold from the site are intended to “promote visibility, unity and self esteem amongst Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Trans-gendered persons”. This is a worthy cause, and I applaud you for catering to us!
However, I’m a little worried about two things on the site – firstly, that you have a “WBW” category on your site, and secondly that you have an association with the Michigan Womyn’s Music Festival. Could you put my mind at rest and let me know what the “WBW” stands for? I’m assuming it’s not “Woman Born Woman” as such a message is quite transphobic and at odds with your stated mission, but because of the MichFest association it’s difficult to tell.
(To clarify, MichFest has a policy of only allowing what they call “women born women”, which is to say, they refuse entry to transgendered women. The problem is, many of us *do* consider ourselves “women born women”, and the phrase is thus a misnomer. However, a new phrase wouldn’t help the bigger problem, which is the idea that transgendered women are not “real” women. This ties into the “WBW” category on your site because, if the “WBW” does actually mean “Woman Born Woman”, then it others transgendered people – *all* transgendered people, not just transgendered women – and perpetuates the myth that transgendered women are not “real” women. As you can see, such a message is very much at odds with your mission, which is why I’m hoping that this isn’t the case.)
Also, if the “WBW” doesn’t mean that, then may I suggest adding a clarification to the appropriate page to prevent misunderstandings in the future? It would save you a lot of hassle, I believe.
Hope to hear from you soon,
– Sophie.
Transjackers intimidate OUT!wear to stop selling red wbw shirts. grrr transjacktavists.
Timeline:
2011: Transjackers bully OUT!wear into pulling its WBW shirt line due to hurt trans feels.
2012:
2013: https://transhumanoid.wordpress.com/2014/03/31/aeryn-fulton-md/
2013: Change.org petition against MWMF
A current online petition to boycott MichFest until the organizers fully include transgender women is currently circulating amongst the MichFest community and within feminist and social activism circles.
2013 Indigo Girls drops
2014 Hunter Valentine drops
2014 Lea DeLaria drops
DONT TELL ME THIS ISNT ABOUT LIVELIHOOD OR CHOICE
These performers got out ahead before they were targeted
Do you really think that the majority of those who signed the change.org petition are trans activists or even trans at all? Don’t you think it just might have *something* to do with the mainstream feminist position? That is, a position promoted primarily by natal women?
While I have nothing against any exclusionary noncommercial private gatherings, it’s not a position shared by most feminists. (I do not identify as a feminist).
As for OUTwear, they were working for a certain political movement and were told to get in line with the mission of the movement, nothing out of the ordinary. Imagine a Trotskyite company being told to stop with a Stalin T-shirt, or vice versa.
Also, does not the claim about some powerful trans activist group that bullies people and changes things sound very familiar? Have you heard of the “gay lobby”? It’s all been there before.
And finally, even a very cursory reading up on Stonewall riots shows that the “T” has been there to start with, too. So it really is an organic union and most feminists and gay and lesbian activists recognize it as such. Just because they, together, form a considerable group, does not mean that some nasty trans activists actually rule over them and any women who hold to the mainstream feminist position are somehow “conquered”.
I repeat, I don’t mind Michfest. But I respect the opinions and autonomy of people, including female people, who do. I would personally prefer if they put the energy into promoting OLF but, whatever floats their boat.
This should not even be an issue, Ramendik!
I am happy and grateful when a real live woman born female acknowledges my womanhood. It pleases me to my soul. So part of me is in agony over this! I am so glad they are sticking up for me and my sisters!
But not like this. Not like this! This isn’t what I want! I don’t need that one week camping trip to feel validated about my the “F” of my documents! I’d love love love love love love to go to MWMF.
I’d love to.
And I would probably go, sooner or later and have already gone….
except
I am burdened by knowing what the intent is. What womyn born womyn means,
And I am not so arrogance as Sophie to assume my womanhood is equal to a FAB,
There are so many other things more important to activist about.
Petitioning against MWMF is privilege in itself! That my sisters have the time, the energy and the motivation. That their lives are going so well, they can divert energy to making wbw feel guilty!
It’s inconceivable to me!
You do have a point that those trans women who have the energy to petition against MWMF are the very privileged kind. Those I know certainly have bigger things to worry about than someone’s party on private land. Nor is it a political organizing event, where protest would be a valid expression of politics.
All I want is respect for those natal women who choose to support trans women – even in a campaign that we might both consider misguided. Recognition that they can have their own ideas and reasons, not just being blind followers (forced or otherwise) of male-bodied people.
The petition has loads of “reasons” under it, signed by women. I assume some might have been written by trans women but not the majority. All I want here is the acknowledgement that this opinion is their own, that they follow no male-bodied person, and that even if some of the performers were indeed affected by the pressure, this pressure comes from natal women of different views and not solely from trans activists.
“The radical notion that women are people”. Some describe feminism like that.
Speaking of people with time on their hands:
Attention Dr. Aeryn Fulton. I’d like a word with you.
Any thoughts on that, Ramendik?
If the quotes are real (I would not trust GT on this, but assuming they are) that’s called a troll. The thick, ugly kind of troll.
I’m not familiar enough with this sort of net life (no time for it), but from what I hear trolling is indeed a mostly male activity. While vulgar attention-seeking is a common trait for any sex, women who engage in it tend to resort to “camwhoring” instead. While I did encounter female trolls, they were much “thinner”, much more refined.
The part where Aeryn somehow pretends to be you while doing disgusting stuff is indeed worrying, but also a relatively common trait. http://knowyourmeme. com/memes/disregard-that-i-suck-c
PG remarks: Nothing wrong with memes or links, I just don’t want a direct link from here to 4chn city
I believe they are real. I found another stash of screencaps of Aeryn’s rants, including some captures that GM doesn’t have or didn’t post. Aeryn also had a chance to rebut any of those quotes on twitter when I inquired, or on here or at GM’s blog.
Aeryn has a *unique pattern of hate and military-speak that flows through his commenting language and it’s very easy to spot once you’ve seen a few comments.
Aeryn clearly has/had a hate/love reaction to my writings. It’s obvious by the way he mutilated my Bridge Building page to suit his rhetoric that he was at least a semi-regular reader of my stuff before I made my blog private.
*Unique for a woman, but wholly expected from male-socialized persons.
Either treat as a troll (and trolls are best ignored, giving attention to a troll is called “feeding” because that is what they are after), or treat as serious threats of violence (and prosecute).
Cathy Brennan is in a good position to do the latter, being a lawyer and, unlike GM, not anonymous. She is certainly no stranger to aggressive litigation in other fields. The fact that she did not might mean here research uncovered something.
Remember – “on the Internet nobody knows you’re a dog”.
I am not sure if it is related, but as I understand it, Aeryn worked as a physician at a hospital during the time of the youtube comments and posted threats about crashing a dyke march, Michfest and harming Cathy.
Aeryn ceased to be employed by that hospital sometime after.
Draw your own conclusions.
Looking back at GM’s thread on Aeryn, Aeryn even posted a suicide threat. That was his response for being busted for threatening violence on the internet!
“Oh poor me, everyone is mad at me now, I am going to go off myself because I can’t stand the feeling of my ears burning all day every day knowing people are talking about what a dude I am by the way I out myself with every word I commit to print, And it will be all your faults and you should feel really bad.”
Males threatening suicide over their wounded egos is a well-known narcissistic attention-begging tactic.
Notice he is alive and well. He had no intention of killing himself. It was just a selfish pity party. And you can pretty much blame Aeryn Fulton for my return to blogging in 2014. I just could not stand idly by and watch another round of anti-womyn activism again and I needed to seperate myself from Aeryn and maybe try to mend things with GM in time.
I don’t see why anyone would want to mend things with a committed bigoted hater. That is exactly what GM is – many, many post of hers have no redeeming features whatsoever and are plain bigotry (sometimes homophobic, sometimes simply collectivist, hating anyone who does not want to fit into a crowd).
Ido see why you would ant to right the misrepresentation of your name, however.
You are right and I was wrong. I tried recently to make peace with her behind the scenes, but she was not having any of it, and banned me from her site. I’ve never been banned from a feminist blog before, and I wish I had the right words to have been a better bridge.
No going back now and mending things now. Maybe she is consumed by her anger and bigotry. I guess I can understand. I guess I am really on my own.
You are and forever will be a man in her eyes, so your opinion is invalid in any argument as far as her and people like her are concerned. You can’t debate with people like that, they’re not interested in it, they only want to slap each other on the back, Me and you don’t agree on a lot of things, but at least we show each other the respect and dignity that everyone deserves.
What you apologising for? There’s no need as far as I can tell. You transition if and when its the right thing and time for you, no one else, remember that.
I am just sad. I had a chance to go in with some folks to do some mass DMCAing on her. At a time when her site was in trouble. I could have scored big points for our team had I been able to help bring her blog down. I refused to have anything to do with it, and even gave her a head’s up that I was being recruited. I thought that might win her…approval, appreciation, whatever.
Now I can’t look at her blog without feeling like a total failure. It just wasn’t meant to be I guess.
You held out an olive branch, and she batted it away, that makes you the better person. You’ve nothing to be ashamed of, we all have regrets, it’s part of being human and we learn from them and adapt.
You don;t need her appreciation but you did the right thing back then.
DMCA is bad in itself. Using DMCA for such purposes is even worse. Copyright is censorship to start with and it’s not a good idea to extend it as censorship – even for content that, possibly, should indeed be censored. Also, a DMCA attack only brings the site down for a short time but creates an aura of victimhood for a long time, so it’s a bad political decision too.
Vile bigots should be brought down only by means intended for the purpose, that is, reporting of hate speech. Not by DMCA. So you were right not to participate and also to try to thwart the scheme.
Perhaps it is just as well. From a spiritual-mental health perspective, it’s probably for my own good to avoid the negativity often swirling around there. Thank you for the reassurance on the censorship angle.
So typing out something which disagrees with discrimination… is somehow akin to English colonization of North America? And this somehow makes someone else’s life hell? Seriously?
If life is hell because ppl on the internet didn’t like something you said, then it might be time to unplug and get some fresh air…
i hope ypu are as good as taking your own advice… as you are at doling it out.
hahaha must say, the same feel that i got when i see radfem wasting so much time and energy in go against trans (really??? a bunch of “males in dresses”, as they label transwoman, are her worst enemy? :P, because in radfem pages i see what a huge % of post are dedicated to this), is the feel that i got when i see the huge effort what trans activist waste in be accepted in this camp…really? whit so much thing to fix in “identity genders” laws, specially in the aplications of this, whit so manny inner insight being needed, they had time to go against this event in the midle of noneplace?
Exactly my thoughts too. A mtf transwoman’s life must be pretty good if you have time to spend making and signing petitions against a bunch of women having a camping and music festival on private land in the middle of nowhere. Isn’t there something better one can spend their outrage and activism efforts on?
#firstworldwhitetranswomenproblems
yes, indeed this kind of changes you dont got whit activism, you got living, sharing whit people, talking, having empathy and finally letting them just be alone if nothing of this work :P.
I know that hurt be rejected for be transgender in any way, i know what is hard to be taked seriously to a love relationship, specially if you dont pass over 90% 😛 (just a random number of course , soung good XD), i know that hurt specially the first times this happen u when someone say u “oh, you area a man? sorry, i want woman, i dont like penises” (or some variation of this) when just minutes before was sayin u “wow you are so beuty / cute / sexy” (that happen me a lot in facebook and other social network, and sometimes in real life)…but activism is not the way to change this, because activism are movement to got right using social pressure and strengh…and u cant change people mind and feelings in that way, specially whit agressive activism.
This things change just living, sharing, having empathy, and accepting when someone say u “no, i am into born females only” or “only vaginas sorry” (the last can include in some cases post op transexual indeed, one woman say me what if i was operated she would thoug then about it o.O) in the same way that you can say “sorry i dont feel atraction to overweight / dark skined / asian / rad haired / etc ” males / females. I make this point because this whole michigan camp issue sound as a angry person after be rejected. (sorry, maybe i cant explain miself enough good in this point 😦 )
what good would got transgender community whit this thing? Just got more hate from who hate them? Got acces to a place whit people that already will make feel them not welcomed if they go? I dont know.
As you say #firstworldwhitetranswomenproblems (and i must admit, i am a privileged one as transgender because while i had some hard moment in my life as male…i still being midle class and had the support of my family, life from my own store whit my sisters and dont loose almost anithing in my transition, that another reason because i cant go stealth neighter, to much life in my back, and well for the standars of passability where i live i am very passable / atractive, but this people …had so…so much time to waste XDDDD)
I really enjoy reading about your stories, Emi. I am so glad you share them here.
I am going to add that hashtag to my terms and acronyms page right now. 🙂 🙂
“I do not want to date a male” =/= “I do no want to date people with dark skin”.
You are both racist and sick. Stop hijacking race.
What if someone doesn’t want to date someone of a different colour? Surely that’s their right? It might make them a racist person, but again, that’s they’re right regardless of how anyone else feels about that. Personally, if I like someone, then I like them, and colour of their skin is irrelevant. If they’re a nice person, we get on and are attracted to each other, then surely that’s whats important for a relationship right? You don’t want to date someone who’s trans, fine, don’t date someone who’s trans. That may make you transphobic, it may not, it depends on the reasons behind it. I am trans, I’ve dated someone who’s trans too, and we we’re as normal a couple as any other couple is, whatever normal means. Would I date someone else who’s trans? I dunno, I like to judge people on how they act, how they treat me and others. At the end of the day, date who you want to date that wants to date you. If you don’t want to date someone, then don’t, no one’s forcing anyone to do anything.
Fwiw, if you use racist language to describe someone, you’re probably a racist. If you use transphobic language to describe someone, you’re probably a transphobe – it’s not too hard to figure that out.
Actually I don’t see a difference and I see both as fine. A person has a right to reject any sexual partner they wish to reject.
(I wanted to write “a right to any sexual preferene” but that is actually not so, you don’t have a right to prefer people who don’t or can’t consent. But you do have a right NOT to want sex with anyone at all for any reason you fancy).
I enjoy a lot your blog too, i love read about your past, your pre transition, your relations, your transition,your view about what mean be transwoman, i love your interest in sci fy, and open me the eyes about my own attitudes about socialice whit women (i dont was to much into take time to make female friends because i am totally satisfied whit my “staff of friends” 😛 that i know from 14 years ago, but now i realice that i must make that effort to advance in my transition)
PD: i am used to hear hard stories from other transgirls (my ex girlfriend was, just to make a example, a stret sex worker for 14 years [and now still doing some “services for money” in time to time but no more in the street], was kicked from her home at 21 years, and is even lucky if you realice that at least half of her friends are now death because suicide, HIV or drugs overdose).
PD2: maybe matters maybe no, i start my phisical transition 2 years ago at the age of 31, at 32 i got out as female for first time, just to make some intent of cronology 😛
For the same reasons women want and should have equal pay, the same reasons women want and should have access to golf clubs that have previously (and some still are) men only, the same reasons that women should be allowed to do all the things men are allowed to do. It’s called EQUALITY.
The people complaining about trans women wanting to attend Michfest, would be the first to complain if a similar event was to take place that was a men-only event, and rightly so. Michfest don’t just discriminate against trans women, they discriminate against trans people in general. You’d exepct that if they didn’t allow transwomen as they them as being men, they’d allows transmen, as logically they’d see them as being women, but they don’t, they just have a “no trans” at all policy. They want their cake and eat it.
Slightly off topic but in the same vein, there’s a pub / club in Manchester’s gay village called “Vanilla”, which is a lesbian bar. It’s not a lesbian only bar in the sense that it says only lesbians are welcome, but lesbians are they’re target audience. They’re policy on trans people is very simple – if you are a woman, if you we’re a woman, if you’ve ever been considered a woman, then you’re welcome. I think they’ve realised that a lot of transmen come from a lesbian background, and have friends in that community, and there’s a lot of transwomen that are lesbians too. It’s an easier policy to police too, and it never makes sense to turn away business anyway, regardless of how you feel about any potential customer.
“The people complaining about trans women wanting to attend Michfest, would be the first to complain if a similar event was to take place that was a men-only event, and rightly so.”
Not all of them, to be fair. Some people actually do believe in the right of people to have a big noncommercial private party.
But this isn’t a private party, its a paid event.
It may be paid but it’s private and noncommercial.
Anti-discrimination legislation can’t really apply there because, to start with, it excludes men. I don’t think that a high street shop excluding men or women would be ok.
My view is, either we’re talking about a public licensed venue (which can’t exclude anyone just for who they are, except minors) or a private gathering (which can exclude whoever the organizers wish to exclude). I don’t think there is a middle ground where one can exclude men but not women, whites but not blacks, etc.
If they are advertising it, then it’s not a private party, it’s not someone’s home, it’s a space they’re charging entry for so whether they make a profit or not, it’s open to the public. I could go on the website, but tickets, and then if I out myself to them, be refused entry, that’s not right. It should be illegal to do, it would be in the UK.
If what you say is true, it would become illegal for exlcuding men, before trans women are even considered. I’m not sure about the UK, a quick google did not help.
But in Ireland I was just passing a “Women’s Fitness Centre” today. I presume the way they do it is that the fitness centre, as most here are, is a members-only club. and there are rules for becoming a member. I suspect that a Michfest-like event could bypass any laws by becoming a gathering of a club, with “membership dues” instead of “entry fees”.
Well what I’m meaning is, they’re saying women only, and using their own definition. UK Law would decide who is a woman and who isn’t, so they could possibly still hold the event here, but they couldn’t exclude trans women (at least not without a bloody good reason). Even if they compromised and only allowed post-op women or said to pre and non op women “you’re welcome to attend, but keep your clothes on” I don’t want to be around a load of naked people regardless of what they have or haven’t got, I just wouldn’t feel comfortable, and the same should be applied here, less of a “don’t ask don’t tell”, more of a “we don’t care, don’t show us” if that makes sense.
And UK gyms can’t legally turn away men, but if you advertise the service in the right way, then they wouldn’t want to attend anyway. Everyone drives, but different cars are all advertised differently to their intended buyer, even if someone they didn’t think would buy ends up buying.
ramendik…how was your genetic alteration?
There are plenty of men-only or effectively men-only events out there (hell, most of society is effectively men-only). There are explicitly gay male separatist groups and events that have existed for decades without feminists giving a hoot. There are trans women (aka male) only gatherings all over the place which again, radfems don’t give a toss about. People should be allowed to have gatherings with whatever parameters they want if it’s not in publicly-owned space.
Also Michfest does not and has not ever ‘banned’ trans women from attending. Vogel and the other organisers have simply stated that the intention of the festival is as a space for those born female and who live as women, and ask that people respect that intention. Many trans women haver trampled on that intention and gone to Fest over the years regardless (and made female attendees markedly around them less comfortable for it, but that’s another topic). There isn’t a crotch check at the gate for goodness’ sake.
If you’re trans and go to michfest, you can’t be honest and open about it. If you are discovered to be trans, will you be asked to leave? Trans women do not see themselves as being men because they aren’t men, they are women. If I set up an event and said all were welcome except anyone who ever attended michfest, that would be just as wrong. Golf clubs that are male only are wrong and are rightly protested by women and men for such reasons. Why is protesting golf clubs justified, yet protesting michfest not justified then?
My understanding is that feminist objections to male-only golf clubs are about either how they are used to shore up male privilege in other aspects of life, eg the amount of businesses that just ‘happen’ to hold events at such clubs and ‘accidentally’ exclude female employees from networking etc, or how the lack of golf clubs admitting women makes it difficult for women to pursue the sport. Given that Michfest is the lone female-only festival in a sea of anyone-and-everyone festivals, I hardly think either problem applies.
Trans women who go to Michfest are perfectly comfortable being open about it because Michfest is a peaceful space. Look at Alice Kalafarski’s account http://prettyqueer.com/2011/09/01/just-another-woman-at-michfest/. She was very loudly open about being trans and yet managed to remain the whole week in peace.
Also again, whether trans women see themselves as women or not makes no difference to the intention of Fest. The intention is for women who were born female to attend. Trans women are male; they may assimilate and live 100% as women in their every day lives after transition, but if they weren’t born male they wouldn’t be trans. The experience of being born female, of being targeted with misogyny from the moment you are born (in some cases even before; adults who know the sex of an unborn child behave markedly differently towards the mother), of growing up as a girl and being belittled, pushed aside and abused for it, and then living as an adult woman under constant threat from male violence (not that trans women are not also under threat from male violence, but it is without the terrifying element of reproductive threat that the vast majority of females experience), is a unique one, it is a shared experience, and it is an experience which justifies women born female to seek out space that is ours alone.
Just as I completely respect the right of trans women to have trans women-only space in which to discuss their particular issues, I ask that trans women respect our right to have our own space. Women born female are not oppressing trans women with our femaleness, our experience of a literal lifetime of misogyny and abuse is not a privilege with which we exploit resources from trans women. Women born female and trans women share many problems and could work together on many things, but we are not the same.
Sorry this was in the spam folder, I just caught it.
Neither the golf club nor Michfest are right to exclude. They’re reasons to exclude cannot be justified. Golf clubs will say it’s because it’s always been that way, Michfest say it’s because women have been treated like dirt since birth, but then they treat transwomen like dirt, when they should be treating them better than society treats both.
June… thank you
And it’s not as if I have a problem with them being women only, and excluding men, but their policy implies that transwomen are men, when we aren’t, and that’s what I object to.
You’ve said two things that I want to focus on for a bit.
And
As far as I know, the policy is an informal one, perhaps written or not, I am not sure on that score. But the Fest has an intention, as laid down by Lisa Vogel.
When your idea of equality means change through oppression then we are not talking about social justice anymore. Every year tranwomen encamp near the Fest to activist for inclusion, despite knowing full-well the intent. This comes from entitlement training which is ingrained through male socialization.
The Fest intent does not imply that we are men. It doesn’t.
The intent encompasses an idea that a female is born into this world and socialized – not as the dominant sexual class. And this socialization is subjugation training that begins with gender role straitjacketing based on sexist ideas of women’s social role because of their female sex. I am going to go with Biology 101 here and call vaginas female sex organs and penises male sex organs. Females are oppressed as vagina bearers. Their oppression as such is not the same as ours and that is what the intent is all about it.
Which brings me to the next question for you, and that is
Do you remember getting your first period?
(and please, don’t tell me that Not All Girls Get Periods because you and I both know that is a derail. Most females get periods and it is part of shared girlhood)
So at what age did you get your first period?
I’m sorry, but as I understand it from your reply, her reasons are just bullshit to try to justify her bigotry.
The last comment I will reply to (for now) is this
Imagine taking yourself to a Black Panther gathering,
A gathering intended for people of color, who identify as oppressed, who are gathering in solidarity.
And you show up to this gathering.
BP “Why are you here, White Person?”
WP “I agree that oppressing people of color is bad”
BP “This is a gathering for people of color”
WP “I know, I am here to show my support”
BP “What part of person of color do you not get?”
WP “Are you telling me to leave?”
BP “I am saying this rally is not intended for you”
WP “That’s discrimination, and it can never be justified”
BP “Funny how that works for you, but not for us, White Person”
I’m not black. I am a woman though. Michfest is telling me I’m not.
Let’s concede Michfest is telling you that you are not a woman.
Also, the Roman Catholic church is telling you that you are not a woman. In so many words. I can give you proof links but this would get the comment into the moderation queue and I assume you know anyway.
Now compare the power of these two institutions. I do wonder why one would pick Michfest for picketing instead of pretty much any gathering of RC hierarchy. Or if we limit discussion to women-only events, how about this one? http://rochester.twcnews.com/content/news/718711/hundreds-gather-at-catholic-women-s-conference/ . Was there a trans walk-in on this, I wonder? Was there even a small picket? I
But my bigger concern is that if all these resources wasted on protesting Michfest would be spent promoting OLF, something useful might actually come out of it. Like a bigger happier OLF and a lot of trans women spending time with accepting natal sisters, not in a controversy camp. Or even like “OLF” not “Michfest” coming up second in the Google search for “women music festivals” (the first, for whatever reason, is a 2007 LA festival).
Make love, not war, build not destroy, etc.
Sorry, I phrased my last reply badly so will try again.
Her reason sounds (and feels) like a reason made up after the policy has been made to justify it, and not the real reason, making me suspect she just doesn’t want trans people there for whatever reason, but isn’t being honest about that / those reason(s).
Question: why would you care about the reasons that someone does not want you on their private land? She can believe trans women are Martian invaders; exactly how does this affect your life?
If she we’re to organise an event for white people only, would you still ask that question?
Yes, I would ask it. Private is private.
My only concern re a white-only event would be the possibility of planning of violence. But even then I’d prefer not to ban it but instead to send some white undercover agents (not necessarily affiliated with the state).
It’s not private if admission is being charged, it is open to the public if admission is being charged. If it were invite only then that would be borderline. If it were invite only and free in her own home then it’s her choice who she has in her own home but it isn’t.
It starts with us, but then who next? Does the private hospital refuse to treat people they don’t like? Do we have hotels and cafés discriminating against whole sections of communities? That’s been done before in several places, it was right then, and it’s not right now. You’re / we’re supposed to learn from the lessons of history, not keep repeating them.
Maybe the below link will explain it a little better / easier.
From what I understand, Lisa Vogel founded the Fest before either of us were born.
What upsets me in reading your replies here, oopster74, is your speculation and seeming hyperbole.
Can we agree, you and I, that female socialization is different from males? Can we agree at least on this, as a start?
Yes, but everyone’s socialisation is different. When this argument gets brought up, it tends to imply there’s only 2 options on that, when there’s as many options as there are people.
If that’s true about Lisa (sorry for the bad phrasing), then it kinda explains her attitude, but it’s an outdated one.
There are only two options on that.
Vagina bearers are socialized one way, because vaginas.
Penis bearers are socialized a different way, because penises.
When did basic binary biology and the clearly different socializations that come from being designated penis-bearer or vagina-bearer become outdated?
You don’t get what I mean. Not everyone has the same upbringing, because not everyone has the same surroundings, I wasn’t talking biology, but its assumed that because of your biology, that you were raised a certain way, when that’s not the case, even if it might apply to 99% of the population.
This is the hyperbole I am talking about.
“starts with us” – this is trans-centered thinking. It didn’t start with us. It’s one, one-week-a-year camping and music festival, deep in the interior of the U.S. meant for women who grew up with the socialization of being a vagina-bearer.
You make a huge leap, from a Womyn-centered music festival, to hospital care! From there you launch into further hyperbole with the references to hotels and cafes.
It’s not about us.
Michfest has been around since the 70s. There has been forty years for your “what’s next” to materialize, and it hasn’t happened. So it’s trans-centric hyperbole. That’s how it seems to me.
Regardless, it’s just not right, and it doesn’t matter what justification anyone tries to use.
Convince me it’s not right, oopster, because I am not buying it.
Persuade me.
“It’s not right” is not a reason. Give me a real one.
You know why it’s not right, discrimination is never right, can never be justified.
Actually, “discrimination is never justified” is not a correct statement. It is WAY overreaching. For a rather extreme example, people tend to discriminate on *something* in picking a sexual partner.
I actually think that current anti-discrimination laws are a bit wrong-headed, in that they reify things like race (which does not exist) or orientation (which is a dubious concept). On the other hand, things like political convictions are not included in the laws, and it appears all right to fire someone for holding a different view on some war somewhere. So I’d concentrate on WHO has a duty not to discriminate, and within that duty what they still CAN discriminate on.
And I would draw the line at “licensed venue” or something like that.
Not everyone in the world is right, and trying to ban everything that is wrong leads to rather bad consequences.
No, you’re right, but does that mean you give up fighting against injustice? I was thinking about this the other day when the women from CND (I think it was CND, it could have been another group) we’re protesting against American nuclear missiles being based in the UK. They camped outside that base in all weathers for years knowing full well that they probably weren’t going to achieve their aims, but they had to do something.
Sorry, can we just leave this now as it’s obvious we’re not going to agree with each other on this, and I don’t think any of us wants things to turn nasty like they can so quickly with internet debates / arguments.
I host this blog for this kind of talk. If you feel you want to take a break for a few hours or days, that’s cool. That’s not going to stop me from responding to the things you’ve posted.
We both have shared boyhood. We are about the same age. We both dig sci-fi. We both transitioned. We are post-op on estrogen. We are both white. We have much in common, you and I.
Why do we have radically different views on Michfest?
There doesn’t need to be a nasty argument here.
You can argue from intellect or reason, or from passion if you like.
If you make a point, I’ll answer. If I make a point, I’d hope you would acknowledge it.
I’ve tried twice now, to discuss our mutual lack of having experienced menarche, and you have so far dodged and evaded me on this.
I know why you are ducking the question.
Because to acknowledge our biological differences, is the beginning of seeing the fest from Lisa Vogel’s perspective.
You don’t seem inclined to want to make that concession.
Do you find your lack of menstruation experience triggering dysphoria? If so, is it because it makes you aware of your lack of female-biology and the socialization experiences that come with it?
“Do you find your lack of menstruation experience triggering dysphoria? If so, is it because it makes you aware of your lack of female-biology and the socialization experiences that come with it?”
I had to look up “menarche”.
I have no issues where that’s menstruation is concerned, I didn’t go through it, there’s plus point and negative points as a result, it’s not something I think about because really, what would be the point? My childhood / upbringing was different to you, because we’re different people, we we’re brought up by different people, come from different parts of the world, our parents / family treated us differently, so to say we had a “shared boyhood” is making assumptions on things neither of us can know.
Yes, we have biological differences to natal or cis women (however you prefer to refer to them), but we have biological differences to pretty much everyone in the world.
I’d have a lot more respect for Lisa Vogel is she just came out and said “I don’t want these people here at my music festival because I don’t like them / don’t want to be around them / don’t consider them women” rather than come up with what do sound like made up answer AFTER the fact to justify exclusion of trans women from Michfest. Using the “shared boy/girl hood” excuse, is like saying “oh, you can’t eat at my restaurant, because you don’t share the same boy / girl hood as me, which is utter nonsense you have to see that.
I just wanna take a break from this because I am tired, it’s stressing me out, and I just want to get back to doing “fun” things. I’m not trying to avoid answering questions, but the wordpress interface quite frankly, is pretty rubbish to use and is really starting to piss me off with it’s limitations.
All lying bullshit comments aside (you know who you are!) this is a brilliant post. The fact is that the hyper-radicalized trans swarm descends on anyone who dares to opine that women have a right to our own space without transwomen present. For this people – and their children – are threatened with bleach, fire, beatings, machetes wrapped on the ends of spear-length sticks, rape, murder, etc. etc. etc. Camp Trans is like the fucking shock troops for a wide-spread attack on real women. We’re supposed to do what, exactly? Submit? NOT IN THIS LIFETIME.
Camp Trans really is the enemy at the gates. Didn’t they bring pikemen to walk the perimeter once? Nothing says dood like arming oneself with a spear to protest not being invited.
Thanks for reading.
Really? (Ok that’s said genuine and sarcastically).
There’s nothing wrong with protesting what you see as an injustice, and I always saw camp-trans as just that. If there are occurrences of what you’ve said, then get evidence (we all have a camera on our phones now) and report them to the relevant authorities, as if that is happening, it is totally unacceptable behaviour, but you also need to make sure only genuine threats are reported, as there are far too many incidents or suspected incidents of crying wolf, which does nothing but harm your own position.
Not only are there photos of the huge spear a trans woman made to patrol the perimeter with, but she took and posted those photos herself, and bragged about doing it. (Screenshots on GenderTrender.)
BTW, this is the first result for Googling “spear mwmf”, which gives me the impression you aren’t willing to type two words if it might mean seeing something that challenges your belief.
http: //gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/04/30/camp-trans-organizer-gemma-seymours-michfest-walking-stick/
Question, was she carrying a homemade “Blue Peter” style spear just to look like a guard on patrol (UK people should know what I mean by that), or was she carrying a spear like an offensive weapon?
Do women with young female children have rights not to have their kids exposed to male genitals? At workshops do young lesbians have to listen to discussions of penises – trans women still adore their penis! This is the one week that women can discuss their vaginas without having someone interrupt them by saying, “I know what you mean….I have the same problem with my penis.
You actually believe that drivel you’re spewing don’t you? Let me tell you, that no transperson I know or have ever met has ever felt comfortable referring to their birth sex parts, they feel the most discomfort possible that someone can feel, and what are those women doing taking their young female children into discussions about any sex parts?l
No, actually, that story is a complete fabrication by Gallus gallus, the great chicken, which you would have realised had you actually read critically. Honestly, we’re coming up on three years later, and you jackasses are still repeating those lies as if there were any substance to them, at all. It would be laughable, if only it weren’t so pathetically paranoid.
I’ve pretty much given up worrying about the dwindling relevance of radical feminism, since it’s pretty clear at this point in history that trans women have won the public debate, but since you chose to mention me personally, perhaps you will do me the service of learning the truth from the only person who is in a position to tell it—me. Because it is common practice for the words of trans women to be altered in forums which we do not control, I will retain the complete text of this response.
The last I saw, as of a few minutes ago, the screenshots of the spear I made which Gallus gallus posted are still accurate. You can find the originals at the Cold Steel forums, since the spear itself is constructed of a Cold Steel Bushman knife and a Quickie mop handle. plus a few copper plumbing bits.
Please direct our attention to the part where I bragged about “patrolling the perimeter of MWMF”. I’ll wait—forever as it turns out, since that never happened. Thousands of attendees at MWMF, and with all the attention focused on Camp Trans, not a single credible piece of evidence exists? Not one picture? Not even a written account? Come now, surely the events of that year were precipitous enough to warrant some mention, somewhere?
In fact, there isn’t even any non-credible evidence that this ever happened other than Gallus gallus’ tweet to me on 29 April 2011, a date which I note is nowhere near the date of Fest. So, from early August 2010 to nearly May 2011, a period of just about exactly 9 months, not a single person mentioned in any of their accounts of MWMF and Camp Trans 2010 anything at all about anyone “patrolling” the perimeter of The Land, much less with a spear or any other weapon, and the whole lot of you got led around the nose by a complete fabrication of the anonymous Cowardly Chicken you worship, because you see only what you wish to see, and not necessarily what is. It’s called “confirmation bias”, and I suggest you have a discussion with your therapist about it.
Oh, did I just imply anonymity is equivalent to cowardice? Oops.
As I pointed out to the hand-wringers three years ago, I find it deliciously ironic that they exhibit so much fear over what is, ultimately, one of the primary symbols of the Goddess in her aspect as Athena (I suppose we’ll hear about how Athena is a fabrication of men, now), and that furthermore, MWMF celebrates other weaponry, most famously the tools of archery, which is taught at Fest and was recently (July 2014) featured on the MWMF Facebook feed.
There’s a lot of fabricated lore, by the way, that has grown into legends and myth about the founding of MWMF and the trans exclusion policy. Since I see you’ve admitted that Fest was founded before you were born, I know something of your age, and I can tell you that you should not assume that there are no others old enough to remember the 1970’s and 1980’s. It’s rather telling that the trans exclusionary faction likes to claim that the policy was explicitly stated on the first posters, but to date, no has has produced any credible evidence to back up that claim.
There are also claims that the specific phraseology originated in Adrienne Rich’s book, which was published the same year. If you happen to examine the actual timeline, you will see that in no way is it likely that that phrase would have appeared on the posters for Fest, since the posters would have presumably needed to be printed well in advance, and a phrase which only originated in that book would not have had the widespread acceptance to justify putting it on that poster.
No, the fact is that the trans exclusion policy is what we call in pop culture a “retcon”, and Lisa Vogel is very careful never to push too hard, since her livelihood depends on the support of women who disagree with the exclusionary policy.
Any lawyer worth a retainer can tell you that MWMF is not a “private event”, as so many claim or would like to believe. It is, by every definition of the term, a “public accommodation”, and while the State of Michigan does not have any anti-discrimination laws protecting trans people, that’s not going to be the case forever. I am told Lisa Vogel is herself an attorney, so doubtless she understands this better than half-cocked anon randos from overseas who pretend concern and troll those who are actually affected by this issue. The very second the State of Michigan passes an comprehensive anti-discrimination law, the trans exclusion policy is finished.
Lisa and MWMF are caught between a rock and a hard place. If they enforce the exclusion policy, they risk losing thousands of ticket sales. If they rescind it, they lose thousands of ticket sales. MWMF is on its last legs as it is, and only by massive individual donations will it even be possible for Fest to reach its 40th Anniversary Year, and even that is not a given. Even if it does get to 40, that is probably going to be the last year. The world has changed. Radical feminism lost.
That “huge spear”, by the way, measures approximately 66″ long. If that’s “huge”, then I guess your world must be rather small, indeed.
Now, if you will kindly excuse me, I would like to return to my obscurity. I’ve discovered I have more important things to do with my life than continue to worry about people who doggedly cling to a failed ideology.
Thanks for showing off your Y chromosome. You are anti-fest. You don’t give a care at all about intent. You care only about PENETRATION as VALIDATION. And the Goddess KNOWS!!!
And before you tell me to die in a fire? Been there! Done that! I came back as a Firebird!
Wow. Funny that someone who comes to address falsehoods then spreads about 8 billion of her own. I’m not sure where to start.
(1) Lisa Vogel is not a lawyer.
A quick search of the Michigan (or California) Bar lawyer look up will tell you as much.
(2) The First Festival Poster Said “For daughters, mothers and womyn born womyn.”
NEWSFLASH: women’s history is ignored, overlooked, or erased. People don’t preserve it because, under patriarchy, it is always already discredited. Go to the Lesbian Herstory Archives in Brooklyn and ask them to show you the damn poster. Fascinating that you would make the intention literally retroactive about transwomen when that has never been, and never will be the festival’s focus.
(3) Females at MWMF Don’t Have to Carry Spears
It is the one place in the world where we feel safe. When we worship the Goddess, we do it with our blood and our bodies as sacrament. We raise her body in kinship and emotion every year. We are Gaia, not Athena.
(4) MWMF Failing
Funny, folks have been saying that for 25 years. Every year. And still she rises. The intention hasn’t changed, and yet the women return. Some of the artists cancel and yet the women return. You don’t get it at all, do you? This isn’t about the music. It is about our survival and the fact that there is no other place in the world where females can be free. That is experiential and the recovery from that makes festival immortal.
That is the festival. That is cellular.
Reblogged this on You think I just don't understand, but I don't believe you..
THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU.
Thank you for understanding this, thank you for hearing this, thank you for getting the distinctions and for understanding the perspective of this conversation. Not all discrimination is bad (I don’t like chocolate ice cream, i don’t date short people, I am not a fan of pastels) vs. (i will shoot any black person i see in this town after dark, i will fire you if you come out).
LV provides an intention. She leaves it up to the individual to determine. Why? Because she isn’t interested in panty checks or having that conversation. She is interested in creating space for the class of females who have had their asses kicked because they have grown up being perceived as females.
That is a real experience. It is the same everywhere even if the experience woman is not.
Now, um, do you have time to speak to Parker Malloy on this?
Because that’s the other thing; the dialogue (as so perfectly illustrated by your figures above) is essentially “disagree with parker malloy = satanist hitler killer of trans children.” There actually is no in between. I think the only people who can bring this back are other transwomen.
In the parlance of my people, can you go get yer girl? 🙂
You are very welcome. I could not have understood all this comfortably enough to articulate it like this, if it were not for the blogs, youtube videos and tumblrs of pro-female bloggers (you know who you are!).
I totally discriminate against spicy foods, so…I agree, not all discrimination is bad. 🙂
As far as PM goes…I am trying to turn over a new leaf and speak from compassion instead of anger. I would love for PM to come here and chat with me. Parker Marie is a sister and I care.I wish I could cast an Enchantment of Empathy with one of the three Elven Rings on Parker.
I truly believe if Parker Marie could see this issue the way I do, there would be a sort-of pro-female Pauline Conversion. Thank you so much for your words.
also, if you aren’t already, you should be in conversation with Snowflake Especial and Mindergenfield on Tumblr! Also, are you going to New Narratives in Portland? Are you anywhere near? The conference is being set up by trans women who are trying to have precisely this conversation and many more…
I’ve thought about it reaching out to them both, but I am sure they are very busy with their efforts. New Narratives sounds like a wonderful concept. I think it is a conversation worth having in our community. I am still kind of sorting out who is who and who is representing what since my return to blogging. There has been some blogging turn-over in Planet Radfem and I don’t know if any transwomen want to be associated with me, frankly. I am representing myself and my own ideas here.
The other issue for me is that being out and organizing in public with my sisters poses a security threat. Publicly identifying myself as a trans woman and trans-activisting for change is not what my transition was all about. I just wanted to blend in. They do have my wholehearted support – in intent and in spirit.
I didn’t read all the comments, but someone should congratulate you on a VERY CLEVER post.
I cannot fault oopster for not getting what most Westerners cannot get: yes, we all have (somewhat) different socialization, but there are CLASSES of people who share certain experiences in life. For example, a child of mine or oopster’s would probably not have to be warned about fearing white people and being very careful in their presence. I’ve been reading comments by someone who feels ripped off by the psychiatric/surgical establishments and feels his dreams and expectations of life have been destroyed. Now, as a working-class female, I’m amazed that anyone expects his or her dreams and expectations of life to be fulfilled!
And it’s odd to me that someone who insists on being female doesn’t even know what menarche means. And if you think menstruation is just a small part of being female, guess again.
Thank you Tobysgirl. Psychiatry is a mixed bag, much like transitioning. I don’t think that it can be denied that treatment helps some people, while others are destroyed.
This. A thousand times this. I think it’s socialized entitlement.
From what I understand of menstruation with women who have opened up to me about it is, I might feel validated if I ever had a period. For all of a week. Then after that the novelty would be over and it would more of a burdensome life-changing process than I imagined it might be or would want to bother with.
And then you get all the little goodies that go along with being female, such as extremely poor medical care, no one caring when you complain of terrible fatigue (clear symptom of hypothyroidism), until you nearly die of pelvic inflammatory disease (infection clear symptom of hypothyroidism), and on and on.
No one uses menarche in everyday speech, and perhaps illiterate and uneducated women are not familiar with the word, but I would guess most biological women know what it means.
It’s not a word that I hear Tobysgirl. Here in the UK people say period, monthly / time of the month or some other euphemism. I’m sure I have heard it before, but not regular enough to know or remember it.
Reblogged this on graceaware.
I just had a look at the link June posted for Alice Kalafarski.
Not only did Alice trespass the land, for the purposes of seeing if she was sexually attracted to females.
But she also volunteers at for a rape crisis hotline (!)
Are you kidding me?
Alice openly admits to penetrating the fest, despite the intention for the express reason to leer at women clothed and unclothed for an entire week, as part of her personal quest to explore her sexuality, and she has the gall to answer the phone for women who have been assaulted.
Alice manages to hit all my buttons with her webpage. Entitlement. Appropriation. Boundary Crossing. Never Ending Quest for Validation. Putting her own needs over the wishes of the class of people that Alice aspired to be when she transitioned.
Never in a million years would I want Alice to be on the other end of the phone if I desired to call a crisis hotline. Not only does she have the wrong socialization to understand, she clearly does not understand the difference between FAB and MAB and that alone disqualifies her from “counseling” women who have been violated.
Unreal.
Sorry this kind of behavior really chaps my polymer casing.
I’m not trying to defend her actions, and I really don’t how you described her actions at Michfest, but if I call a crisis line, what I want to hear is a kind, caring voice, someone that will listen to me and possibly offer advice. I would hope that anyone on the other end of the phone line would have the relevant training and that’s call would be randomly monitored / recorded so they know who’s doing well or badly.
If I called a crisis line, I would hope that the person on the other end understood what unwanted penetration means.
Alice doesn’t and Alice used the Fest, not to heal from Patriarchy and forced gender straitjacketing, but as a live-action dating site. She was a voyeur. A peeping tom.
No way does she have the empathy to be a counselor for sexual assault.
Then she shouldn’t have attended Michfest and should be a counsellor, it’s that simple.
I feel I need to clarify something if I were to attend Michfest, but will do it in a bit when I’ve got my laptop in front of me (it’s a bit long winded and not easily done on an iPhone).
She also attended a sex workshop that was supposed to be about healing. The moderators asked everyone to write down some experiences with masturbation. Now, to be fair, the moderators chose her “response,” but it was all about masturbating her penis. A bunch of women got super triggered and had to leave and get emotional support. She actually wrote about that too (her response was basically, oops, well sorry). Trying to see if I can find it online or if she pulled it.
Ahh, here is is (http://prettyqueer.com/2011/09/01/just-another-woman-at-michfest/2/):
So that’s about it for my experience with a week of Michfest’s transphobia. The only time I felt like I might get kicked out was when I let my guard down at the wrong time and place. During a workshop on masturbation, the facilitators had us all write down our first experience on an index card; they were collected anonymously and read to the group. Later on, two TWBH organizers let me know that some women had complained about this at Oasis, the emotional support tent. If the facilitators hadn’t preserved my anonymity, Michfest security would have had an excuse to kick me out for “traumatizing” those women. Even then, I didn’t worry too much because the organizer let me know that TWBH fest workers would quit if I got kicked out. Solidarity like that is what prevents Michfest from taking direct action against us.
I mean, yeah. Not the qualities I would want in a rape crisis advisor.
Well she could have phrased her “story” better. I know when I’ve been asked things, there are ways of saying what you want to say without saying it a certain way, so it seems to me that she’s a bit thick (stupid / unintelligent if you’re not sure what I mean by thick) where that’s concerned. Thinking about my first experience, I could be specific as there are certain specifics, but, with a little thought, I can edit out the offending parts. Fwiw, I had to have someone show me what to do. Whether she passes or not really shouldn’t be important, unless she really doesn’t pass / make an effort (think Tim Healey’s character from Benidorm, but I don’t know if Lesley is supposed to be a tv or ts, but is obviously there for comedy effect in a comedy show). What I mean is, it’s a camp, most likely in the summer months I’m guessing, a relaxed atmostphere, there are going to be natal women there that look more like men than some men – I’m not trying to offend with that statement in case anyone thinks that.
I also want to state for the record that Alice does not pass. At all. So the idea that her talking about masturbating her penis was the only tip off is utter bullshit.
And notice, she doesn’t care about the women she traumatized. Just that she didn’t get kicked out. And she still thinks that she is meant to be there. This behavior is 180 the direct opposite of what festival is.
I can’t really explain it anymore; but everything about that land is about feeling more safe. Completely safety is impossible, right? There are always people who are gonna do something. But one aspect of it is safety from male violence and sexual aggression. So for her to not get that at all. To open up this space to a lot of folks who don’t get this at all…it makes me want to cry.
http: //prettyqueer.com/2011/09/01/just-another-woman-at-michfest/2/
Breaking Alice’s comments down:
Ignoring the haters, haters going to hate, eventually we will win. Male socialization? Check!
Undaunted in the face of boundary signs. Male privilege? Check!
That’s right you rest your pretty head since you worked so hard to come to a place where women walked by you and called out “Man on the Land!”
Good to know that your invasion of Michfest was both trans-political as well as being a peep-show. Male socialization? Check!
Awww you experienced diminished fun on account that you violated the intent. Come here and get a hug!!!! It’s alll about meeee? Check!
To Alice this is not just a casual pick-up spot for trans-lesbianism, it’s part of a political struggle. Her presence at Michfest was boots-on-the-ground activism. Like trans-infantry.
Again, it’s allll about her and her benefits and her validation, you know, in spite of those transphobic WBW. Narcissism? Check! Endless Quest for Validation? Check!
You poor thing you. Ohhhhhh. You came to the Fest as a political trans-aggression and as a hook-up spot, and you actually had to bear the repugnance and disdain of women who knew you were there for that reason!
As for writing about your penile masturbation, way to show some tact and empathy. Really, what was going on in your head, if not to perv-out on the women there? How could you think that was acceptable? #girlslikeus right? We were “always” women so I guess playing with the laydee stick is just “different womanhood” right?
Puke!
Alice is a card-carrying member of The Explorers and Colonization Club. Way to out your male socialization for all to see, Alice! Oh yeah, deduct another -1000 rep for all the “cis” language. Proof of being a Serano neophyte.
Reading her pages has peaked my mortification threshold for the day. I am sorry that some of us do this. I can’t do anything about it, except blog about it. Change through oppression makes more wounds than it heals, but the TWBH crowd doesn’t get this, and this too is because of male privilege and socialization.
Transwomen’s hearts are not the same as socialized women’s hearts. Part of male socialization is tuning out your heart, and restraining projective empathy because it makes it easier to make cold, clear-seeming rational, emotionless decisions which are needed to wage war on rival tribes. We have to do real work on our psyches to heal that spiritual disconnect in order to open our hearts and I rarely hear of transwomen lowering themselves to deprogram the mental advantages that come with male privilege.
This whole thing makes me want to cry too.
ps. No way could I ever find healing and solace in the arms of a transwoman like Alice. Not only would I never want to disclose my trauma history with her, but I could never embrace her physically or emotionally and stand with her in solidarity. Her mind and her heart is alien to mine.
I’m totally confused by pretty much all of that PG, scratching my head here.
Should I go back and tag which are her quotes with her name?
no no, I can already feel my braincells trying to escape my head via my ears.
Maybe it was a little harsh to criticize her like that, but sometimes this talk, by its nature, must be uncomfortable.
I can forgive some mistakes because I’ve made plenty of my own out of ignorance. But in this case, Alice clearly disrupted the energy of the healing groups with her generic cluelessness of FAB life and lack of empathy. When transwomen do this, they basically prove Mary Daly and Janice Raymond correct. That our transitions are truly aesthetic, truly skin-deep because hormones and declarations of self-identity based on feelings does not strip out the hardwired behaviors of male socialization.
Some feminists have said, “Hey, why don’t you transwomen go make your own fabulous and healing pro-trans, all-inclusive Fest of your very own, and rock out your trans-masculine or trans-feminine performances and leave MWMF alone.
in this post I have tried to show two things,
1, the appeal of MWMF and the role of TWBH and CT. It’s colonization, through and through, based on male entitlement and male privilege expectations. There is no way that CT and TWBH can walk away from their activism. MWMF is the Forbidden Land and male-socialized persons are compelled to make the unknown, known. The off-limits, occupied.
2, I would never ever in a thousand years want to go to a Transwomyn’s Music Festival on private land in some other location, because hanging out with a bunch of folks who put on drag and got cosmetically altered on the purely theoretical basis that they had a birth defect or a mental disorder, a group of people who truly believe they were always female and retcon their shared boyhood as some kind of atypical womonhood – a group of people who do not understand things like male gaze and unwanted penetration and the inappropriateness of space-invasion, along with a socialized indifference to boundaries is not something I would pay $400 a ticket for and want to spend a minute of my time exposing myself to.
Our community is just sick because gender hurts. I really can’t stand the entitled behaviors of late transitioners like Brenda from the old MWMF forums and the young ones like Alice.
tl;dr a TransFest would not appeal to me and a trans-inclusive MWMF would not appeal to me because:
We would gain inclusion at the erasure of FAB life, and
I would have to deal with being gawked at by Alice K, Toby Meyer, June Day, Brenda, Brandi Marie Parker, the transwoman I met in the women’s locker room, and the spear-wielding transwoman at Camp Trans.
No thanks!
I get what you mean. I’m contemplating going to Sparkle in Manchester this year, mainly as there’s a FFS consultation there (after wearing glasses since the age of 15 I need something doing about my nose at least, it looks like it grew around my glasses at the time), but I’m dreading being surrounded by cross dressers and transvestites that will be making all kinds of false assumptions about me, but aren’t I doing the same in my thinking of them right now? I’m going to go anyway, the only thing that might stop me at the mo’ is if I’m not working by then and can’t afford to.
I think with anything though, you have to portray a positive image if you want to change people’s minds on something. It’s no good barging into Michfest and saying “I have a right to be here!” but to maybe stand at the gate handing out flyers and telling people calmly about the the admittance policy without applying any guilt or pressure is a long road to go down, but it’s the better road to take if we (the people who want Michfest to allow transwomen) want them to change. Are you going to listen to the mad preacher on their soapbox screaming about hellfire and damnation, or are you going to listen to the intelligent sounding, calmly speaking person regarding any topic you might think of.
Nothing speaks male socialization more than seeming lack of empathy with the REAL STRUGGLES that people who are not male, not white, not economically comfortable (and whatever I left out) experience every day. I just don’t understand this obsession with MichFest. It’s as though no one exists who is homeless, jobless, hungry (I live in a place where many people go to bed hungry at least some days of the month); the worst and most troubling thing in the world is a festival for biological women to be free for a few days of men’s presence, however said men are dressed.
It’s awfully hackneyed, but it seems as though oopster and ramendik (isn’t this an unfortunate screen name? it brings little skinny noodles to mind) need to get themselves a real life where they can accept that some people just don’t want to spend time with them. If my body weren’t broken, the computer is the last place I would be.
I am sorry about your struggles, Tobysgirl. I am glad you have internet to engage with. I read a little bit of your health problems at Joel’s site. It’s probably hard for people who have born privilege their entire life to really be able to swap shoes with someone whose life is powerless or a daily struggle.
TWBH activism is pure privilege. Maybe I should change my trope to #firstworldprivilegedwhitetranswomenproblems because that is clearly what the obsession with MWMF is.
In your other comment you couldn’t believe that people have expectations that their wishes be fulfilled, and worse, feel really terrible when those wishes fail to materialize or their expectations were not what they hoped for. I understand that. I gave up transition initially in ’96 because I just accepted that some dreams just don’t happen. Maybe I will go into radical acceptance a little more in a future post, but to folks who don’t have #firstworldproblems there is probably nothing radical about accepting something that is apparently beyond reach.
Re: ramendik, I have to call him Mikhail for awhile now thanks to your visual. 😀
You know, my dear, I don’t agree with absolutely everything you’ve written, but you make a lot of sense, and I appreciate rationality and thoughtfulness. It’s been easier for me my whole life to imagine the terrible things people experience in everyday life because my mother — I am a TOTAL mama’s girl — was very socially conscious and very intense in her outrage at injustice. And then I’ve been poor and lived with poor people, so economic deprivation is never far from my mind.
Leo wrote a good comment about radical acceptance at GT. I’ve always been a physical person, very grounded in my physical body, so never got angry at my body (angry at myself?), but still find it hard to accept that I can’t do the things I love.
Always happy to make someone smile!
You know, re “radical acceptance” and letting dreams go – no. Just no. That’s a MUCH bigger issue for me than anything trans related.
One of my biggest inspirations in life right now is a woman (or girl, she’s not yet 18; a natal female) with a really magical talent at singing. She has encountered health issues that mean she currently can;t sing and it’s not clear what comes next. She is fighting to keep singing to the last.
For the sake of people like her. For the sake of all who struggle for their dreams against impossible odds. NO.
Oh, and re “male socialization”. It’s not her alone. There are MANY women (natal ones, too) who explore and conquer. There are MANY women who stomp their feet and say – I belong here, I reached here, this place is mine (and not because a man gave it to her). These women are sometimes – including the girl I mentioned – actually very feminine in appearance/interaction.
Speaking of magic
You said:
This is Tori Amos
Oops, where was that? Google failed – so live TV perhaps? I’d really love to see the context.
That was Tori opening a rendition of “Somewhere Over The Rainbow” with a dedication to her mother.
This song
sometimes I would sing for my Mom
and no one would be around
And um, my mom had big dreams
but she put them away
and she would sit and play me records
and then I would see her sit in her chair and look far away
from being a minister’s wife
and running in a field
being a little girl again
having those dreams
and sometimes I would play this for my mom
No such thing as a “natal female”. Quit using this fetishistic Gattaca lingo – these women are women (adult human females). Assuming the class of woman in society (which I suppose is what you do) does not negate your maleness.
You are male and ergo received male socialization and privilege that clearly shows in your entitlement. Come to terms with this biological fact and start working on your narcissism to find peace with yourself .
You assume wrong, I’m an ally, not trans. But you have just pinpointed the big reason I am an ally.
“Narcissism” is not a problem, it is a slur. Originally a rather narrow diagnosis, it was adopted by collectivists as a slur against anyone who dares to consider themselves unique individuals and not cogs of some “class”. People who dare to be people, not herd animals. Trans or queer or any individual identity out there.
Collectivism is the problem. Defining people by “class” that they were simply born into is the problem. And certain radfems, in their cozy alliance with fundies, are doing just that. (There is loads of evidence of the alliance, what with spreading fundie lies about cases like Colleen Francis, openly linking to their sites).
My name is just the real name (though I’m quite aware of the imagery), I use it to avoid being mistaken for someone’s sock puppet, or of being ashamed of any opinion. And also, just because I can.
I do wonder why you mispositioned me. (Is that even a word? I just copied “misgender”).
I was constantly stating that I support the right of Michfest to exclude whoever the heck they want as all other private garherings. Which means that all-men. all-white etc is fine too.
I’m not even trans (except by some VERY wide definitions); I’m a man with some interests that push gender boundaries. I never describe myself (as opposed to a character I might play) as a woman. So *I* don’t belong there anyway, nor at OLF which I still do prefer to promote.
I’m against the radfems because I’m against class-based collectivism, owing to my background growing up in the late Soviet Union. But I’m against most collectivism, so this entire “privileged group has no right to its space” is, to me, pure bull. INDIVUDUALS, not a group, have a right to define private societies,
So for the record I’m very fine with someone not wanting to spend time with someone else including me. I just apply it throughout. I support anti-discrimination only when public commerce is involved; also I’d like to reframe laws to avoid reifying dubious concepts such as “race” and “sexual orientation”, and to extend protection to other forms of diversity such as political opinion. In my perfect world, a list of transactions where discrimination is forbidden is clearly defined and narrow; but within that list ALL discrimination EXCEPT by a closed list of criteria, the ones described as relevant for the case, is forbidden. This way one does not bother about adding the next item to the laws and you get protection, say, from cases when someone discriminates on body weight. (More relevant to the current context: what if a man is discriminated for a relationship with a trans woman? His gender identity is usual. He can not say under oath that he is gay because he perceives her as a woman and himself as straight. So, even though the intent of the law would protect him, the wording of the law won’t… though a clever lawyer could push it under “gender expression”).
Re Michfest, not only so I support the right of the organizers to do whatever the heck they want to, but I also would love to see all the energy spent trying to change the policy redirected to promoting OLF. For what I know it’s somewhat struggling. Just imagine all the boycotting musicians arriving there, all the activist volunteers switching there, all the fiery blogs spending that fire promoting it. Just imagine the constructive results! And yeah, building up big things may be male socialization too, whaaatever.
I have to say that PG’s recent feat with this post is very impressive. She got Cathy Brennan to signal boost OLF.
Hope I’m clear now. If you’re gonna keep me in the list of enemies – which you well may if your definition of feminism is close to that of Catharine McKinnon, a principled collectivist – at least please do so for the right reasons.
If this was directed at me, I have no enemies. You exaggerate your own importance.
First, if you cannot distinguish between forced collectivization by the state and class analysis, there is nothing anyone can say.
Second, you betray your male socialization in one particularly clear way. I have found that men online often seem to enjoy swamping other people, particularly women, with words. No facts, just endless recitations of personal opinions, the same opinions over and over again. If Truman Capote referred to Jack Kerouac’s work as typing, not writing, this isn’t even typing.
I see forced collectivization by the state as a direct consequence of class analysis. To wit:
– Class analysis means people of an entire class have objective common interests even if most do not agree these things are in their interest
– An organization, a “vanguard of the class”, armed with the analysis, is therefore acting in the interests of people even if forcefully trumping these very same people, and OF COURSE is entitled to “lead the fight” against the “enemy class”
– This organization has no qualms using whatever means it deems necessary for its aims, exactly because it sees the aims as representing the objective interests of a large class
This is not my imagination, but how Bolshevism worked in reality. As an opponent of Bolshevism I oppose all radical class analysis, whether in gender, economics or anything else.
You’re right regarding me not giving facts, but a text littered with Lenin quotes would be REALLY long. I hope to get to it eventually, in my own blog.
My husband made the excellent point this morning that you must not have to work, i.e., engage in collective action at accomplishing a job. My point was that you are perfectly willing to engage in collective denial.
Reblogged this on Critiquing Trans & Gender Identity Doctrine.
Stolen from GenderTrender:
Now is your chance to enlighten Feminists about how:
1.) Humans are not reproductively dimorphic. Because disorders of sexual development!
2.) Sex-based oppression goes both ways! Weary is the head that holds the crown!
3.) Global war on women? Women Rape Too!
4.) Sex roles: whatareyougonnado? Let’s embrace them! More consumer choices!
5.) Big Pharma is freedom!
6.) Feminist speech murders males! And forces males to murder females!
7.) Lesbians and Gays oppress those of the opposite sex by rejecting them as heterosexual partners!
8.) Etc.
I shall go about all day repeating Weary is the head that holds the crown! And laughing my ass off!
These are examples of the patriarchal reversals Mary Daly referred to, yes?
I was skyping with a transwoman friend of mine yesterday, and we started talking about Michfest inclusion. She told me she was fine with not going, because she didn’t want to be somewhere she wasn’t wanted. But when I tried to talk about Lisa Vogel’s intent and the idea of woman-born-female or womyn-born-womyn and shared girlhood, our conversation quickly went sour, very quickly.
In our convo:
1.) Our lack of first (and subsequent) periods, (no rebuttal)
2.) Penile circumcision = not shared girlhood. (she agreed with me)
3.) Men rape. Women get raped by men a lot and need a safe space. Many girl’s first sexual experience is being raped by a relative, often the father.
Rebuttal? “But boys get raped too!” I stated that was called the “What about the men” derail and my friend absolutely lost her cool. She then wanted to drum out rape statistics and all that jazz and basically turn a truth “Men rape women, and most rape victims are women” into a fact-finding mission to find out exactly how many boy children get raped. A total waste of woman energy to explain what is patently obvious – to someone who is trying to defend the trans position.
4.) After making my point about menstruation, vulnerability to pregnancy, and forced femininity gender straitjacketing, I felt that I didn’t need to elucidate further that wbw have shared girlhood, and that healing from that is part of the intent of Michfest, and the mbm have shared boyhood, which is different from shared girlhood.
The rebuttal? “Girlhood is different for different people. Lisa Vogel’s definition of shared girlhood experience is a value judgment I just don’t agree with.”
Our conversation ended moments after that… 😦
You would like her, oopster, because she argued point for point just like you have here.
It’s because transwomen’s identites are not secure in their womanhood, that they need inclusion at Michfest. Smith College, VRR, and girl’s college dorms. These are notches in the bedpost of identity validation to be collected by transwomen to prove their authenticity to themselves and others.
What I want, can be summed up in one word “EQUALITY”. i didn’t go through all I’ve gone through, emotionally, physically, surgically etc to be told “sorry, you’re not woman enough”. I am a woman that has started from a different location, but I’m a human being, like us all, and deserve the same respect that anyone deserves, but because I’m trans, I get a hell of a lot less. Michfest can have any rules they want, doesn’t stop me thinking they’re wrong, do you actually think they’re right?
PG probably has a different line of thought. My line is that they have a right to be wrong. With some wrongs, enforced righting is simply a greater wrong.
Why not leave them alone? They have no power to define you. Energy is better spent on those closer to such power. Like the women’s org of the political party near you (not an issue in the UK for all I know, but in the US this appears to remain a problem).
What you want is called “Justice for all”. It’s an ideal, but it’s not possible for everyone to have equality at all times in all things.
Did you see Fifth Element with Bruce Willis and Milla Jovavich, oopster? Do you remember Leeloo’s “multipass”?
Most of the time, as transwomen, the world is our oyster. My multipass allows me to get medical care, legal treatment, admittance to cafes, hotels, resorts, public transportation, most schools. There are very few limits placed on my life socially as a transwoman.
99.9999% of the time in my day-to-day life, I feel pretty privileged, actually. At the risk of bragging, I’ll just say that I also enjoy the privilege of being perceived as female. So my life as a transwoman is pretty good. A lot better than the lives of millions upon millions of so-called “cis” gender women in this country, and in many others. My multipass as a white American woman, lets me in, pretty much everywhere I have a want or a need to be.
You ask me if I think they’re right? I started this blog on the premise that no trans woman or trans ally will ever convince me that a male to female transsexual, or a trans woman, has the lived data bank of experience needed to be able to pass certain boundaries, namely the idea that our woman-experiences are not the equivalent to born-female experiences.
I’ve said this before, if I could get one transwoman to genuinely agree with me, that we do not belong at Michfest, due to lack of Vogel-defined girlhood (pretty logical seeming to me) nor should we be rape counselors on account of not being able to fully appreciate a female’s rape, due to our lack of reproductive vulnerability, then my job is done.
Thus far most transwomen seem to think that my argument is flawed because I am not insisting that my “different womanhood” is just as valid, just as legitimate, as a female, born female, raised as a girl into a woman’s womanhood. And the only reason I must have for agreeing that we don’t belong at MWMF or Vancouver Rape Relief, is because I hate myself. Obviously!
To me, every trans who thinks that about me, seems delusional. Am I the crazy one for thinking this? Or are most TWBH activists crazy for believing that a transwoman’s lived experience is just a “different girlhood experience”?
I think it comes down to how we transitioned. I chose to transition voluntarily. I knew I was a man trying to become a woman, so I had no need to retcon my boy-life. I am not ashamed of being XY and having been a dude. I am not bothered by it. It’s not a big deal to me.
Most transwomen transition because they have a “feeling” that they are truly women on the inside. After transition they seek out boundaries to barge into in order to validate their idea of #girlslikeus, which to me seems like perfectly male socialized entitlement behavior, outing itself for all to see.
The difference if I may be so bold? The fact that I walked calmly into transition as a form of rebirth and evolution, instead of transitioning out of depression and desperation, trying to correct some kind of mental-genetic-physical birth defect like seemingly all other transwomen do. The difference is entirely mental, caused by a different sense of one’s identity. Whatever the difference between you and I, oopster about our transition motivations, yes, I do think “they” (in this case, Lisa Vogel), is right.
Ok, I think I’ve already said this, but I feel it’s important to restate it, or at the very least rephrase it. I don’t buy LV’s reasons for excluding transwomen. I think she just thinks the idea of transwomen is “icky”, but doesn’t want to own upto that and be seen as intolerant, so makes up some bullshit reason about “shared girlhood”, which does presumes that every women’s childhood and upbringing was the same, granted, there will be large similarities, but to assume that everyone’s childhood was the same is a big assumption to make. Secondly, this rule has a bigger impact that just one music festival. Those women coming away from Michfest may well believe that transwomen aren’t really women and worthy to be treated as such, and this impacts upon all transwomen. In the UK, our health proffesionals, paramedics and emergency staff and the like, are just that, professional. Whether they like or approve of the person they’re treating, they treat them with the same professionalism and courtesy as they would anyone else, yet I’ve heard horror stories of trans people being left by the road side untreated in emergency situations and nothing has been done to punish the people who left them there. I think America is brilliant that you value free speech, but unfortunately, too many of you don’t realise that doesn’t mean you can’t say anything you want without being held responsible for it.
We have just jumped onto the merry-go-round, again, oopster.
Doesn’t matter that you and I have probably have a variety of experiences of sharedboyhood, like first erection maybe? Maybe circumcision maybe? Maybe being socialized as explorers and conquerors? Maybe socialized to stare at women’s bodies? All part of sharedboyhood. You just can not call it for what it is. You want to do the retcon into girlslikeus because your ego can not accept anything less.
Anytime you feel you have evidence that Lisa Vogel’s intent is having a broader impact than a week-long camping trip, you feel free to post links.
I think this is called hand-wringing or pearl-clutching. This is pure fantasy in your mind, oopster. That’s why our sisters invade Michfest. The very idea that women are having a conversation that excludes male-born persons is unacceptable. We have to infiltrate to make sure they are not talking shite about us behind our backs, right? Maab training.
This is not the UK and Lisa Vogel is not a paramedic or a doctor or an EMT. Professional life is not the same as what goes on on private land at a music festival.
And what is the right punishment for that oopster? A year in jail? Ten? Twenty lashes? Transgender humanities classes? Electroshock Therapy? Also, if you tried to tie in the odd story about a transwoman being ogled and untreated by bigots with the healing from Patriarchy that occurs for WBW at MWMF, you failed.
Would you like to censor me, oopster? You want to gag me or report my blog for hate speech? Do you think I have the right to come out as an out and proud, vocal trans-critical gender atheist or should I just shut the frak up and go back into the closet?
When one of our sisters says things like this:
http://eminism.org/michigan/20100719-anniedanger.txt
Lisa Vogel’s party. But really it’s meant for us! It’s all about Trans Never Ending Quest For Validation of Self-identified Womanhood.
Her festival. Our politics. Her vacation. Our forward base of operations. Her healing place. Our validation place.
And transwomen are so clueless when Lisa mentions “male energy” on the land.
It’s hard to appreciate your male mental energy when you’ve been projecting it all your life! See also: Janice Raymond was right about us.
I don’t want anyone to shut the fuck up, I don’t have any ego to worry about, and if medical professionals don’t do their job properly, then they’ve got no place doing it in the first place. You’re making assumptions about my childhood without even knowing me, the same thing LV is guilty of. She can do whatever she wants with her music festival, and I can do whatever I want (within the law and reason) to protest her rules for the festival. Like I’ve said before, I think I’d either love the festival or hate it, but seeing as I live the other side of the pond, it’s hardly likely I’d be able to physically attend even if I was welcome.
Okay PG, I run the risk of getting banned but someone has to say it. I think I have a decent theory of what you are trying to do here.
You’re quite as busy seeking validation as those who want to blend in at Michfest. The validation is in passing the criteria for a female group. You even picked somewhat similar groups. You seem to have swallowed whole the radfem claim that their ideology speaks for “women” as a class, and therefore, you seem to think that upholding that ideology – even when it’s most pronouncedly harmful, like in its anti-technology slant and its tendency to right-wing alliances – would bring you closer to “women”.
Sadly this ideology seems to be getting the best of you, with the aspects of your thought I found endearing – the pro-technology, space expansion view – seeming to give way to it.
Plastic Girl remarks: I studied well your comment and I knew you would probably go for this gambit sooner or later. You are not banned. Your socialisation betrays you, ramendik. The splaining. It burns. If you want to toss out the value of the rest of my blog, or you are not interested in future topics like bisexuality, robotics, transhumanism, other cool gender stuff, on account of my strong feelings about Michfest and Rape Crisis Shelters, then you are not someone worth having around. We have to be able to agree , amicably, to disagree, and make common cause on things we do agree with. If you can’t do that, it tells me something about you.
My multipass:
I need to watch that film properly at some point, its one of those films I’ve only ever seen in bits.
What I don’t understand is why the discussion of the Michfest point was simply conceded from the start. Why do you need to convert a person to a narrow class-based viewpoint that is used specifically to exclude said person?
She says she disagrees with Vogel’s judgement, but accepts her right to the judgement and to define her private event using that judgement. Where is the problem here? Just that not everyone believes in a very specific agenda?
Girlhood, as well as boyhood, is different for different people. Femininity is not uniformly oppressive, nor is masculinity uniformly beneficial, because they get expressed in lots of different ways in different situations. These are facts that get reduced into a straightjacked of class-based thought, which benefits a small group, Let that small group have its meetings in peace. But why try to make everyone accept its thinking?
Yes, Big Pharma is freedom for *a lot* of people. Most of these people are quite comfortable with their sex. Please check your temporarily able-bodied privilege.
Did you ever read the book “Dune” by Frank Herbert? If so, do you remember the spice Melange which extended life, prevented disease and gave some minor psychic abilities in large doses? After you became saturated to the spice, you were addicted to it, forever.
Your life becomes bound to The Spice, and you need to keep taking it, or suffer from incredible withdrawal. That’s bondage.
When I transitioned, I was privileged that I could just assume I was entitled to get estrogen for the rest of my life. My freedom to be Plastic Girl, meant chaining myself to the pharmacy, for life.
As a transperson, you can check your first world NHS, Obamacare or health insurance privilege, that you can voluntarily bind yourself to Pharma at the age of 20, and hope that that system will still be in place and catering to you, 20, 40, 60 or more years later.
I am not even a transperson. I just happen to know that I would be dead or crippled a long time ago without “Big Pharma”, which continues to be important in my life. In this particular thing my life is somewhat close to that of a transperson – without constant medical work it would be pretty gloomy. (Allow me not to share medical history in a public forum; I do not qualify as legally disabled).
I do agree that access to pharmateuticals and other high tech medicine is a privilege. My take on it, however, is that we need to do more to extend that privilege to those stranded without it – not to bash “Big Pharma” and think that freedom lies in some sort of adherence to nature. Just as my take on male privilege is to seek empowerment of women as individuals – I want to, and I’m happy to, see more female explorers and conquerors. (Yeah, one can even be born female, explicitly feminine, AND set out for conquest – by one’s own achievement not as in “conquest of men”. I’ve seen this happen, and I adore it too).
I heard some radfem somewhere describe liberal feminism as “seeking to extend male privilege to everybody”. Can’t speak for the actual libfems. For me, well said.
PG remarks: I didn’t call you a transperson. Since this convo includes transpeople, that was aimed at them, not you.
PG, you are a much nicer person than I am. My guess is that you are also much younger; I remember being a nicer person once upon a time. Unfortunately, it got me little besides abuse. Perhaps I should stay away from this site, or just read your blogs.
PG remarks: I cherish your thoughts here, Tobysgirl, and your perspective. I appreciate that you have had more time than I to become exhausted trying to dialogue with male socialized persons and going nowhere. I totally understand if you don’t want to waste energy here.
You fucking idiot. Able-bodied privilege? I’d like to cram my able-bodied privilege down your throat. Oh, yeah, Big Pharma is freedom; that’s why I see constant ads on TV for lawsuits representing people who have been harmed by Big Pharma, which is only jokingly regulated in these United States. The latest is for some drug that was given to boys who now happily possess breasts. You really need to stop spouting and start reading, e.g., exposes by people who worked for Big Pharma.
I would like to know if anyone has dreams that concern something other than their own egos.
Well you told me of your dream, and you know I’m all for “entitlement” when it comes to those, so here goes.
Here’s your chance to go to your nearest Republican Representative and get the congressional speech you desire. The Obama Administration has quietly slipped a change in Medicare/Medicaid coverage through without consulting Congress. If you play your cards right, they will be furious when you point it out.
http: //www.buzzfeed.com/evanmcsan/obama-administration-opens-the-door-to-taxpayer-funded-sex-r
ramendik,
You could easily exploit my political naivete if you tried. But there are two things that I know for sure about the Republican Political Party.
1. The people of the RP would gladly take control of my body if I was reproductively capable.I know there are political republican men who would forbid me to have an abortion if I was raped or force a unnecessary medical procedure: a transvaginal ultrasound – to guilt trip me about my impending abortion – because they believe that your God’s Holy Writ and Rule is how I should live my life. My body, their politics, their god, their control. Of my life. Total. Freedom. Not really.
2. Sarah Palin.
And as a bonus:
Obama admin is Democratic, unless I’ve been living on Dagobah the last couple years. And what could be bad about Star Trek sex changes? Isn’t Star Trek medical care one of my dreams? A neovag for every trans that wants one. What could be bad about that? All hail the impending trans-sex revolution. Yes or no?
Sometimes you have to let your kids make mistakes. Including painful ones. Including ones that you are pretty sure you could help them avoid if they would just slow down and listen and be patient and endure.
Maybe I’ve been looking at this the wrong way. Let’s trans the world. Maybe, we need a few more regretters. Then, people might start to get scared and think a little harder about accepting what they’ve got. Maybe that’s just what we need. Let anyone have SRS who wants it, and start a ten or twenty year survey. Twenty years from now there should be so much regret, trans won’t seem quite trendy anymore. Maybe it will just look sad. Maybe once we see more, we’ll fall out of our love affair with the entire thing, thus saving many many more in the long run from the same fate.
Maybe we should let them eat cake. As much as they want. Until they puke on it, as a society. Then we can move on to whatever the next big thing is.
For you ramen
Well, it works for me one way or another. If you decide to play with the Republicans, then the alliance between radfem and conservative views gets in the open, at which point it loses it sting. (The transphobic opinions lose their alleged “bipartisanship” in political philosophy). But if you don’t, at least you see exactly where restrictive politics leads.
Yeah, Sarah Palin. Whatever her olitics she is also one of those living proofs that one can have, and embrace, the woman gender while being pretty dominant, contrary to radfem reductionist definition of that gender as embodying submission. Though Margaret Thatcher was somewhat more convincing. (And no, I don’t buy vicar theory, women – visibly feminine women, too – can dominate on their own, and that’s just part of the diverse beauty of the world).
I see no simple solution to the abortion debate except one we would I guess both eagerly embrace, but it’s not here yet. The uterus replicator, that is. Until it’s available I only see an impasse between the inalienable rights of two humans. (I believe basic rights to be inherent). There is no good fix, no solution on the table that does not diminish the humanity of one or the other party, but thankfully there is hope that technology will solve the problem. Money is needed, but I do hope that many, perhaps not most, pro-lifers will pitch in to save human lives. I would, too.
It might turn out, though, that a uterus replicatior is hard to build outside a human body. Then we’ll have pro-lifers paying trans people to carry transplanted fetuses to term when their bio mothers have decided to abort them. If that happens I’d just love to see the look on the face of Germaine Greer; may she live that long. (“No so-called sex-change has ever begged for a uterus-and-ovaries transplant; if uterus-and-ovaries transplants were made mandatory for wannabe women they would disappear overnight” – probably the biggest gaffe in the history of TERFism).
..hey, googling works wonders sometimes. I only wanted to confirm who that gaffe came from. What I found was something genuinely surprising. Andrea Dworkin supported “community” coverage of SRS from a radical feminist, gender-abolitionist perspective. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_views_on_transgenderism_and_transsexualism#Feminist_support
In Woman Hating: A Radical Look at Sexuality, published in 1974, radical feminist writer and activist Andrea Dworkin called for the support of transsexuals, whom she viewed as “in a state of primary emergency” due to “the culture of male-female discreteness.” Dworkin asserted that “every transsexual has the right to survival on his/her own terms. That means every transsexual is entitled to a sex-change operation, and it should be provided by the community as one of its functions.” She further opined that the phenomenon of transsexuality might disappear in a free society, giving way to entirely new identities.
Further quote: “We are, clearly, a multi-sexed species which has its sexuality spread along a vast fluid continuum where the elements called male and female are not discrete.”
#notallradfemsarelikethat
and this seriously wowed me. Quite far from the image of radical feminism, and of Andrea Dworkin, that one gets from modern bloggers. And an explanation of basic queer theory, in 1974, in a radfem book. Which, by the way, gets on my reading list.
…gonna mutilate my own argument about Greer’s gaffe. The gaffe really represents Germaine Greer as an author, more than anything else.
Apparently she simply does not bother about checking her facts. I found a similar gaffe on a completely unrelated subject, if online sources are to be trusted. In “Beautiful boy” she apparently claimed that women did not notice the beauty of teenage boys and did not let themselves feel their desires. The book came out in 2003. By that time the yaoi/shota fandom, an entirely female phenomenon centered around the very desires she thought women repressed, was firmly established in Japan (its cult classic Ai no Kusabi became an anime in 1992-94) and was growing in the West. So the development she sought was right under her nose the whole time – and continued unabated, hardly noticing her work. Pity, really. So much shota research and so few shotacon girls got to read it.
So no, this stuff from her does not really condemn TERFs. They just have an academic in their midst who does not care about facts. What movement does not have one?
I was totally rusty on the shotacon/yaoi thing so I googled…and….this was the first thing I found. Any thoughts?
Yeah, pretty much it, except it does not cover the gender aspect.
Lolicon is overwhelmingly a man’s thing. While there are more than enough girls in the fandom who like girls (exclusively or not), not many are into loli.
But shotacon exists with both men and women. With women fans, shotacon is closely linked to yaoi/boys’ love/etc, that is, fantasy male homosexual relations (usually not really resembling the real thing). When I encountered them, I misunderstood them at first, but then realized it’s an important way of women activating and embracing their desire.
And now a quote from Germaine Greer about the matter in that screenshot.
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Andrew Denton: There are those who say — have already said in print — that what you’re doing is creepy. It’s no different to an old man staring at a young girl and lusting after them.
Germaine Greer: (CHUCKLES) Well, you can’t stop the old man staring at the young girl and lusting. What are you going to do — tell old men that they must be blindfold or something? I don’t think that’s particularly creepy as long as they understand that they’re not…they have no right to lay hands on that person. But you can’t stop them. How could you? I mean, the luminous figure of a beautiful young girl walking down the street and the old men sitting on the wall, leaning on their sticks. What are you going to say? “Look the other way, you dreadful old bastards”? What are you going to say? It’s part of the joy of life is admiring the beauty of things that are beautiful. What is important to me about the Boy is that once upon a time his beauty was understood and celebrated by people of both sexes. A boy was allowed to dress in very bright colours, he was allowed to show himself off in the street, he dyed his hair, he wore make-up, he wore a little cap tipped over his eye with a big feather in, he wore tight pants and cropped jackets and so on. And the girls looked down from behind their jalousie and talked about the best-looking boys.”
=
Just to think that she missed the presence of women – actual natal women – who were enjoying and objectifying that beauty right as she said this stuff.
Here, found much more extensive quotes from Dworkin.
http://www.womanist-musings.com/2009/08/andrea-dworkin-on-transgender.html
Other sources state that Dworkin was later swayed by Raymond. But from this story I learned not to trust anyone when Dworkin is concerned. She was apparently a complex thinker who really can not be reduced to a positive or negative stereotype of “radfem”.
I’m not gonna read Jeffreys until i can do so easily and for free (as in, online), but I hope to be headed for libraries soon re Dworkin.
In a world in which people are slaughtered daily in the name of so-called democracy, in a world in which so many go hungry, without shelter, without medical care, without work, why are you so obsessed with radical feminists? Did a radical feminist see you without your clothes on and fall on the ground laughing? This is my husband’s theory, amusingly enough!
It would really be unfair for me to barge into a conversation about radical feminism with information about wars in the name of democracy, wouldn’t it?
I actually spend much more time researching the US-inspired conflict in Ukraine than radical feminism, I just don’t place that stuff here, and most of it is in Russian anyway. (If anyone reads Russian, the blog where I do that sort of politics is ramendik on livejournal – not linking to avoid having the message in mod queue).
However, strangely it was just yesterday that something so major came up I actually translated it to English. The alleged beacon of democracy and freedom and pro-European policy and gay rights and what not, the government in Ukraine established by NATO-backed coup, is firing road police for refusing to go fight its own people. And to top it all, I got the news from a pro-Kiev website. http://ramendik.wordpress.com/2014/05/31/ukraine-kiev-government-fires-road-police-for-not-engaging-in-war-against-donbass-savedonbasspeople/
The question was, Why, with all the horrors in the world (mass horrors, I would add, though you seem to have a difficult time with mass horrors), are you so obsessed with radical feminists? It does seem more than a bit weird, and when men get obsessed with particular women it usually seems to devolve into being rejected. I can’t abide MRAs, for example, but I spend ZERO time reading their vomitous spewings.
Firing road police seems just about right for the government in Kiev. I’ve actually been reading quite a lot about Ukraine.
We seem on the same side on the thing important right now…
I actually did mention why, but can’t blame you for not reading thru this entire voluminous exchange between two biological males. Anyway, personal hurt was involved, but it were not radfems who did it. It were Marxists. It’s a very long story (which actually does not involve romantic rejection, on the contrary, I met my first love when we were stuck in the middle of a Red block on a talk show). Anyway, it IS personal about “objective class” analysis and primacy of the alleged collective interest over the individual. Radfems – I mean the kind presently vocal online – are so very similar to the old Red propagandists I encountered that it’s actually creepy.
Funnily, with actual Reds, we’re now tactical allies thanks to Kiev.
So yeah. It’s personal, just not as directly. But some hours ago I go a pleasant surprise when I found out that Dworkin was actually not like this at all, despite the stereotyped descriptions I got from both her admirers and her detractors. Her statements about humans really being multi-sexed, with reproduction apparently being just one aspects – hey, I like this.
He certainly does seem to like straying around feminist spaces, Tobysgirl! (I can’t ever use an abbreviation of your name, because that would be TG, which feels a little weird to me.)
Don’t sweat it, Mikhail. I am not upset with you. Much. You are a little dense sometimes with regards to what I see as teen medical experimentation and dangers inherent in over-labeling, but your political knowledge has been educational, and I do appreciate that.
Comprehending class analysis requires the ability to understand that an important component of post-industrial corporate capitalism is the absorption of supposed outsiders into the system. Look, we’re not a racist society! We have a black president! (Never mind that he is an African-American of extremely recent vintage and that you can apparently graduate from Harvard with zero knowledge of American history.) Look, we’re not a sexist society! Upper-class women can behave just like men and order people to be slaughtered willy-nilly! (By the way, life under Queen Elizabeth I was no festival of freedom. The secret police were everywhere and the government even decreed what days you could eat sweetened buns, let alone more significant activities.)
What Mikhail’s brain cannot take in is that even someone such as myself — relatively androgynous, outspoken, assertive — was socialized female: to take care of others to the point that I would ruin my own health, to try and be agreeable (getting too old to care anymore), to put my very real needs last. One can always point to this woman there and that woman over there, or that black man there or that black man over there, as an exception to the general status of the class, but it does not wipe out the treatment of the class in general. Black people use drugs at the same rate as white people, but are far more likely to end up in the prison system due to deliberate government policy aimed at maintaining a racial caste system. I don’t really care what the government propagandists said in the Soviet Union; I care about the COLLECTIVE DENIAL practiced in my country every day in every way, the denial of the (economic, physical, psychological) violence faced by women, black people, native people, poor people, etc.
Actually I left most of those spaces alone some time ago. “Never the twain shall meet”. I can have more traction even with actual Reds, what with common aims in current international politics.
You are an exception because of your pro-technological stance and (sadly intermittent) acknowledgement of individual diversity.
Most of them appear to toe the DGR line, which I see as totally shooting themselves in the foot. You see, I don’t buy conspiracy theories. Traditional gender roles are not the result of a massive male conspiracy, they were created by natural selection in a non-technological society, driven by extreme scarcity and physical force. The advent of technology enabled first their dilution and then a continuing process of flux and change. Importantly even the negative sides of technology played a part, as war economies necessitated female workers (a situation that was very skilfully exploited by feminists of the day).
A return to a nontechnological world is a return to strict patriarchy, whatever the intention of those clamoring for it.
Whoops, I meant that to be a general comment, not a reply, PG!
I am glad to know that Mikhail is not a supporter of the fascists in Kiev.
OK, at least we’re in agreement on the things important RIGHT NOW. (My worry about radfem politics is about a showdown that might happen down the line but not an immediate worry at this point; and anyway who will care about it if WW3 starts?)
So, serious question – where do English-speaking people who don’t share the official NATO line on Ukraine hang out online? I’d happily join a forum/blog/whatever, but no idea where. And I can translate stuff from the DNR newsline as well as occasional UNIAN gems like that police thing. (I even know someone in the DNR press office – an old friend is in Donetsk with them, though she does not have much time to chat with me now obviously).
To PG, explaining the jargon: DNR is “Donetskaya Narodnaya Respublika”, People’s Republic of Donetsk. They and a similar team in neighbouring Lughansk did not accept a NATO-backed coup in Ukraine and eventually declared independence.
Check out Counterpunch, Information Clearinghouse, Consortium News. I had a liberal acquaintance whining to me after the coup that he couldn’t find any decent information (you’d like him, you agree on how mean feminists are!), and I directed him to Gary Leupp’s piece on Counterpunch detailing the background of some of the new cabinet members. Someone else detailed the $5 billion expenditure to destabilize Ukraine; he couldn’t trace all the money, but showed where a lot of it went.
I made this point to some idiot in the UK who was swooning over the “revolution”: If I lived in Europe, I’d be plenty worried about the advent of WWIII. But whatever one thinks of Putin, he apparently will not allow Russia to be drawn into a debacle created by NATO (i.e., the U.S.). The more the U.S. blusters and threatens, the weaker it seems to be getting (Russia stills hold $100 billion of U.S. Treasury securities, which is pretty amusing; China holds almost $1.3 trillion).
Unfortunately, the Poroshenko govt might actually be trying to force Russia’s hand. Putin obviously does not want to invade, as an invasion could engage Russia in a protracted war. But if slaughter of civilians increases he just might not have a choice.
The invasion would mean increased NATO and EU support for the struggling Kiev regime.
Thanks for the references! They do look very interesting, especially Counterpunch has a lot. Though I was hoping for something more interactive, like a forum or blog/blogroll. Perhaps the Westerners are all discussing the issues on Facebook, a resource I’m still failing to understand properly.
Oh, Mikhail, Mikhail. Anthropological studies of hunter-gatherer peoples generally show they are far more egalitarian than so-called civilized humans. Hunter-gatherers were extremely dependent on females’ contributions to food supplies, which often far exceeded that contributed by male hunters. Unless people were living in extreme climates, such as the frozen north or the parched desert (and many desert ecosystems are quite abundant in food), hunter-gatherers usually had more than enough to eat, which is why the European invaders looked malnourished and puny compared to the native people in Florida, for example.
I suggest you read The Dangerous Sex by H.R. Hayes regarding the roots of patriarchy and misogyny in primitive societies, which blossomed under “civilization.” One could almost come to the conclusion that there is something terribly wrong with the male mind. I have read MEN writing about the deleterious effects of testosterone on the body (which is why males don’t live as long as females if the females aren’t being worked to death) and certainly steroids don’t improve one’s mental or emotional function. I personally feel we need to try the poisoned meat trick on alpha human males; the baboons were certainly happier when the alpha males ate the poisoned meat, died, and the persecution of females and lesser males ended.
Well, your last paragraph is pretty essentialist, isn’t it? As for “something wrong”, one needs to have, for starters, a standard of right and wrong to discuss it in such terms. And we can quickly get on VERY dangerous ground if we try to find a common standard *and* explain its roots clearly.
I much prefer Dworkin’s narrative of effective multiple sexes, which then allows us to see that different qualities, appearing in parts of the population, such as the “alpha male” etc, will blossom as the environment becomes favorable to them in selection.
Hunter-gatherers can only exist as hunter-gatherers when a few specific conditions are met. Basically the population density must be low enough to be sustainable by the naturally available food. Even DGR would be hard pressed to admit they would reduce population to THAT standard, but more importantly, once reduced it won’t stay there.
The tribe that adopts agriculture becomes able to sustain a higher population density. A higher population density is an advantage in violent conflict with other tribes. And it is at that point that you will inevitably get domination of the sex (or rather subtype of sex) that has a propensity for brute strength and domination and also is not endangered by pregnancy. There will be various minds around, but the dangerous one will win out in natural selection.
The human alpha male is a product of social evolution in a natural environment, and only social evolution in a techological environment can undo him. A poisoned meat trick would only work for a couple generations, then you just get them back, that’s how genetics works in a large population. A social environment that advantages other subtypes of sex behaviour – from biological females and males alike – can have a lasting effect, but THAT depends on technology.
I’ve never heard your concepts of human selection, etc, put forth by any anthropologist. Maybe the ones who now work for the DOD, helping the U.S. to manipulate other peoples (I’ve heard it suggested Obama’s mama engaged in this re Indonesia, a loathsome thought), would second your popular Darwinism. Survival of the fittest does not refer to the nastiest motherfucker on the block.
Did any “tribes” adopt agriculture? Tribal people in what is now the United States practiced horticulture, but those are two very different things. Hunter-gatherer peoples who did or did not mix in horticulture knew how to maintain their population density and had no interest in overpopulating their lands. I’m always amazed how modern people seem to think people in the past were stupid; they survived for tens of thousands of years and it looks like that is very unlikely for us. It reminds me of the sign in the “health” food store for vegetarianism portraying T rex as dying out from being a meat-eater; very funny when dinosaurs existed for millions of years and humans will be lucky to make it to 200,000 years.
You know, Tobysgirl, I like to think of myself as a realist. I would love for us as a species to make it to year 1,000,000, but the cynical side of me sometimes thinks your estimate may be a bit generous–by three zeroes.
Your talk about Reds, Mikhail, finally made me realize how you view radical feminists/feminists. In the 1950s, Americans were taught that Americans leftists — all identified as Communists, whether they were or not — were a fearsome bogeyman out to steal the very breath from their bodies. And for you, feminists are a bogeyman for some unfathomable reason.
It’s just the radfems in their popular internet version, and I think I explained the reason already. The claim of a small group to represent “objective interests” of a large “objectively existing” class, based on a narrow ideology, is exactly the modus operandi of Bolshevism.
I know much more about Bolshevism/Communism/Marxism that your average McCarthyist of the 50s. I did read loads of Lenin. And the resemblance is uncanny.
I don’t have a problem with feminism in general (other than complications in the abortion debate). Also, recent reading made me realize I should not judge Dworkin by her fandom. If I were to pick a bogeywoman not linked to the specific trans issue, it would be MacKinnon, who openly called for a collectivist feminism and also closely worked with right-wingers to introduce censorship. At least I saw some of her actual texts, not quotes. But some are not all, so even there I might be mistaken.
Dare I ask what you mean regarding the abortion debate? This is not a subject I am open to debating; there have been times in my past when I would have willingly murdered anti-abortion [I don’t even know what to call them; the overwhelming majority are obviously severely mentally ill]. Underpants sniffers?
I am no fan of censorship. Are you aware that after MacKinnon and Dworkin managed to get that stupid law passed in Canada, the first book censored under the law was Dworkin’s? I find that very funny. And now lots of effort to censor the internet.
I don’t care much about the contents anyone’s underpants or what they do with it (consenting adults of course).
I do agree that most anti-abortion activists apparently do. I find it very funny that many anti-abortion people in my native Russia are also fighting against “propaganda of homosexual relationships to children”. Somehow nobody notices that the only 100% assured way for a sexually active teenage girl not to become pregnant is to be sexually active only with girls. No pregnancy, no abortion. (But then, that team also somehow has a problem with contraception too. I don’t get the logic and with such friends, who needs enemies.)
I do, however, care about the principle that basic rights are inherent in the human individual. That’s any human individual irrespective of sex, gender, ethnic makeup, or age. And I just can’t see how not seeing the fetus as human can work, except if human rights are granted by society – which, for me, is a Big No.
Therefore, for me the abortion debate is, at present, an unavoidable clash between basic rights of two human individuals. I can NOT go with the team that sees the fetus as not having rights – simply because once that genie is out of the bottle, anyone can be declared as not deserving rights from society.
It is my sincere hope that fetal adoption by way of an artificial uterus will resolve the issue within my lifetime. The artificial uterus would decouple saving the life of the fetus from forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy. Then the rights of the fetus become a matter of financial support. And if anyone who is pro-life now won’t pitch in for fetal clinics then, we can all join in a loud chorus of “you hypocrite”.
Sorry, when fetuses cannot exist outside a woman’s womb, they are parasites; they have no rights. I do not grant theoretical people rights as anti-abortion activists do; only the living have rights. And while I do respect people who are at least consistent — anti-abortion, antiwar, anti-death penalty, pro-welfare — I have no respect, less than no respect, for those who shed crocodile tears over fetuses and those who no longer have the ability to punch them in the nose.
I would have more respect for your position if you were capable of getting pregnant. However, as has been said, if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
In fact I *am* antiwar and generally pro-welfare. Unsure on the death penalty but more to the anti side.
I also do understand your last point, so I generally leave the “activisting” on the abortion issue to women. There are quite enough women who share my position (and before you ask: I mean natal women; I don’t even know a single trans woman who would be anti-abortion).
Having said all that: I do not understand why one would see the act of birth as a transition from “theoretical” to “living”. I *can* understand seeing the mere zygote as theoretical (and I’m fine with emergency contraception). But I can’t understand exactly where a late term fetus differs from a newborn baby, except the fact that the late term fetus depends on one particular person for survival, while the newborn baby, still exactly as dependent, can have that person replaced with another person or group of persons.
The artificial womb will remove that difference, resolving the entire issue.
Folks, I just wanted to say this is an amazing discussion.I don’t know how it all came to place like this, that we’ve all come from different backgrounds, different countries and socializations, but having this kind of talk is really what I hoped would eventually happen, when I started this blog. A cogent discussion with people worth spending time with whose opinions on things I respect. I am seeing some topics I’ve long been curious about and I am just going to sit back here for a little while, study your comments, and savor the moment. I’ll be back a little later to answer some comments and hopefully ask some intelligent questions if I can’t work out the answers for myself!
Thank you all for being here today and contributing.
I received an invite to go to MWMF recently. But I won’t be taking that offer, now, or any other time. I made a promise to an old friends.
Besides, I am a mutant, and there are plenty of other places I can go to decompress.
You personally PG? Did they say why?
Yes they did. I can’t really go into that, as it was a private exchange. It was a lovely offer, and one I would gladly except, but I am a feminized male, or a masculinized quasi-female.
It tempting, because MWMF is the ultimate exclusive girls club. It’s tempting because, I am tempted to police my sisters behavior. It’s not like I can’t see spot them easily enough. And the energy! Two years of hormones does not make a person radiate girl vibe, or, it doesn’t remove male vibe.
I would love to model a more empathetic behavior, but I didn’t do this to get into MWMF. I just wanted to understand barriers to assimilation and acceptance. Then I wanted to understand the intent: shared girlhood. But I still can not do the recton. Even though a female friend of mine recently told me I should “totally go” I learned my lessons from excellent teachers, and I know how we as m2fs absorb Patriachy, and project it out. It would not be relaxing for me to go there, only to observe the behaviors of my sisters. That would grate on me to no end. Totally ruin the spirit of the trip for me. knowing my sisters are Patriarchying it up. I know what my sisters do to desecrate this place. I respect the intent. My multipass does not require that particular achievement unlocked for total validation. There are other places to go to get away.
It’s just not that big of a deal to me. I can’t chillax at a place that has become political. It sickens me, frankly.
My sisters can not escape the entitlement training, and for that reason alone, I can’t stand to be near them, at least, not for long, if they are projecting it. It would be neat if I could find a trans sister like me, who thinks like I do on the matter. She, I would go camp with. The two of us. Maybe start something of our own. But there has to be rules to admission. It can’t be a walk-on site where the very people I need space from, just show up because they think they are entitled. It is just a big merry go round. I NEED to BE HERE. FOR ME. And MY EGO.
There is a bazillion acres of Earth I could go to get away. The very fact that the fest has become a political issue for my sisters just breaks my heart.
But they want the Michfest Star* marked on their validation card. I find it repugnant.
Edited to add: of course, obligatory natwalt, but I know it when I feel it.
A longer reply than I was expecting lol.
There are reasons I’d go and wouldn’t go if asked. If I was invited to try to mend fences, make peace etc, then I’d consider it. If I was just invited without the intent to discuss, educate (each other both ways), then I would decline.
There is a women’s lgb group near me that welcomes post-op transwomen, but not pre or non. Transvestites and cross dressers are women and aren’t wanting to be women so wouldn’t want to attend anyway, and wouldn’t “qualify” anyway. I’d heard about this group and their rules, but my memory is rubbish. After a pride event, I was at their stall and it was suggested I should go to their next meeting which I did. All the women there were lovely people who treated me with nothing but kindness, respect, tolerance, everything anyone would want from another person. Half way through the night I saw some of their leaflets and noticed they only welcomed post-op transwomen, and suddenly I felt very uncomfortable and unwelcome. I didn’t say anything then as I didn’t want anyone else to feel uncomfortable either. I struggled with this for a few hours afterwards, before emailing politely telling them why I couldn’t feel I could attend future events, and got a polite reply back. I know that I do t feel any different post-op that I did pre-op, and it’s not as if they’re going to get a rush of transwomen signing up. I often think did I cut my nose off to spite my face, and as much as I would like to go, I can’t allow myself while they have this rule. Another women’s group locally didn’t have this rule, and had a grand total of 2 transwomen attend the entire time it met, one of them being me, the other being a young women who I met there, who has since took her own life. Sorry to end that on a downer, it just made me think of her and I got a little upset.
Was it from Lisa Vogel and verifiably so? If not, I would be VERY wary.
It does not matter. I never responded. See my response above. I didn’t do these posts to get an invite to MWMF.
If we were suddenly accepted, I still wouldn’t go, for the reasons I stated above. Hanging out with a gang of my sisters in a politicized environment is not my idea of a fun and relaxing time.
The time for me to have gone was before I knew about the intent. When I thought it was just a simple music festival. That time is past. To show up is basically telling Lisa Vogel, “You’re not the boss of me! I am here whether you intend it or not!”.
Empathy failure, boundary failure, sensitivity failure: check, check and check.
Anyway. I noticed a surge of traffic today on this post, so if any of my new readers have questions or you think my analysis is wrong, then make a wordpress account and leave a comment. I enjoy sparring with my sisters! I know all the strats from the Book of Male Entitlement and the book of political correctness. I studied feminism, including the radical kind. If you think I am wrong, by all means. come here and tell me. 🙂
I just unsubscribed from the MWMF newsletter. As long as no one attempts to censor my blog and have it pulled, I am leaving this up here for my sisters until wordpress is gone. Thanks for all the views. I hope you TS/TGs learned something.
I just wanted to say that I really like your blog and i think it’s an important step to polite discourse on these subjects. I’ve been following the issue a lot just lately – and since I’ve always been about as leftist and liberal as one gets, it HURTS to get called a bigot or transphobic for expressing my support of women-only spaces, or my utter disgust with some of the actions of these trans activists.
I think it’s great what you’re doing on this blog, and I’d love to just chat with you sometime. 🙂
Thanks,
– Lana
thank you very much for reading my humble sharing. i love my… i love tg and ts women. I fully support their choices to body mod or trans human or whatever. i deeply feel that most self-identified transwomen, transactivists and transadvocates have a shallow understanding of certain genuine aspects of fab socialisation; namely they do not understand “Stop”, “No”, boundaries, or when enough is enough. It’s that heart discipline stuff that i mentioned is lacking. i was hoping to educate self-identified trans women as to what respect for boundaries and “please do not violate me” actually mean. hopefully they have a better understanding of the critically missing elements of their resocialization skills and if so, then i did proved what i set out to prove. inability to respect another comes from a deeply rooted inability to respect one’s Self. it’s obvious, to me at least, due to my lived personal experience
thank you
Have you ever heard of a group of militant women protesting outside of a male-only event to be let in? Harassing them, guilting them, seeking to financially ruin anyone who supports them?
How often, ever, do you see women with a ‘take no prisoners’ attitude? How often do women have the attitude, “I will get what I want or I will burn you to the ground?”
Essentially never. Sometimes I wish women would act that way. If we knew how to do that, maybe we would have overthrown the yoke of male dominance a long time ago. But we don’t. So much for that whole thing about transwomen being no different from women born women.
thank you for your thoughts and for taking the time to comment
Men only golf clubs in the past, and rightly so.
Excellent article. I definitely appreciate this website. Thanks!
I know this is an old post, but I just love your site and I had to comment. Thank you so much for understanding that non-trans women do appreciate a space of their own. I remember one time when my best friend mentioned casually, “Sometimes I just need to be around other Latinas.” I’m not a Latina, and even though I never really felt the ‘need’ to be around other African-Americans, I do understand that when you’re around people who have a shared history or a shared experience, there’s sometimes a wordless communication that takes place that’s very comforting and self-reaffirming (My husband often gets ‘the black man nod’. That’s when two black men who are perfect strangers pass each other on the street and make a nod of acknowledgement to one another.)
Now black people get all different kinds of socializations too. We’re not one monolithic group, and neither are women, but when I’m in a women’s support group, it’s comforting to know that we all have an understanding of what it means to be people like us, what it means to grow up girl. I want the foundation of my journey as a born female to a woman to be respected as unique, deserving of its own space. Not a better space or a lesser space–just a space.
I will give on one thing: I admit that I am privileged. I’m privileged to be born to accept my body completely. I accept my body in spite of every demon, internal and external, telling me to hate it. But being born a woman is no more a privilege to me than being born in June instead of July or liking the taste of cilantro. It just is what it is. This is what women have been arguing for half a century: that our parts are not inferior, not that they don’t matter.
Yup. That’s what we see, too. Men coming to conquer. We know this and see this. Glad someone they may listen to has come out and said what we’ve been saying all along. Women are not a land or battle to conquer. We are human beings and we have a right to say no.
for you
I am glad you created this discussion. Do you know what happened to the Fest discussion boards? Would you mind if I ask how old you are? I understand if you don’t want to share that.
hey there. i do not actually know what happened to the MWMF discussion boards. but i miss them. there was some real magick going on in those threads.
as for my age, well. hmm. since it is you who asking and we go way back… alright.
assuming i survive all this, next year i turn forty.
thanks again for visiting and for your help and knowledge.
i hope you will consider staying this time. or at least dropping in more often. i missed you.
i have things to do in actual irl today, but thanks for coming. i mean it. take care for now.
There’s definately a great deal to learn about this subject.
I really like all the points you made.
so i was thinking of another way to communicate the issue of Michfest intent and the transactivist perspective and it resulted in a made-up convo in my head that went something like this:
Transactivist: “The intent of Michfest is harmful to transwomen because it implies that my womanhood isn’t valid. This is harmful to transwomen.”
FAB-festee: “Nobody is claiming your womanhood isnt valid. The issue is that the intent of Fest encompasses two points. Namely, attendees should have been raised as girls, and thus experience shared girlhood. You are a biological male. You were raised as a boy. Full stop. No amount of mental gymnastics or trans-activism is going to make Lisa Vogel believe that boyhood is the same as girlhood.
The second issue is that Fest serves as a place for females to heal from Patriarchy. Although we appreciate the fact that you have been living as a woman for the last two years, the first forty years of your life, you were part of the problem.
You were socialized as a man, and you wielded male-entitlement and male privilege. You were socialized as a member of the sex-dominant class and you were part of the sex-oppressor class. For the first forty years you embodied the very thing that fest-goers seek escape and healing from.
No matter how many books Julia Serano authors, you can not and you will not get born-female Festees to brainwash themselves into believing that your four decades of Patriarchal male-hood is actually a “different kind” of girlhood, or that your forty years as male is equivalent to womanhood, or that you were sexually oppressed as a penis bearer.
Please go to another music festival. Your his-story of male-life invalidates you from shared girlhood and vagina-based sex-oppression. Please understand and accept that.
Hi plasticgirl, I really appreciate reading your stuff and look forward to reading more.
I just read this post and your swimming pool/change room post and I had written a reply and was about to post it until I just read this Nov.11 comment of yours, so I will cut and paste my original comment below, I just wanted to say that I think what you just wrote here is perfectly acceptable by and for radfeminism, a movement that has been and continues to be mostly euro-centric and heavy in the head, light in the heart and spirit, not to mention stuck in a colonist framework — something all us non-Indigenous/more colonized/domesticated/”civilized” people are unfortunately afflicted with to some degree or other. I would add to your comment that if trans women want in to FAB spaces, they should wait to be invited and will be invited, just like any humans do when relating with others — we don’t push or impose or inflict ourselves on eachother, we give and get respect and go from there. When it’s not given (or gotten), we go our separate ways, and create our own spaces and communities that suit our needs, so long as we don’t hurt others while doing so. I myself am not adamant to only share space with FABs (but I support their right to want FAB-only spaces without hassle), but I don’t want to share space with aggressive, entitled, boundary-trampling trans women such as the type you described in this post and the types GM spotlights. But I know better than to think this group/type represent all trans women or that all trans women are like that. It’s too bad these ones are so loud…it’s a real cluster fuck.
My original comment to this post:
This was a thoughtful post to read.
I like to not only try to look at life from a DEcolonist perspective, I also like & need to learn about traditional/non-assimilationist Indigenous people and cultures, and most especially interested in my own due to not wanting to appropriate or culture-vulture from others, and also because we all come from tribal/Native roots, whatever part of the world we originate from before the so-called civilization project began — to see how they did and do things, in order to get a sense of what healthy being and living looks like, since there are no examples in the colonist culture, including feminism, a mostly white women’s movement that wouldn’t exist if we DEcolonized & lived Indigenously as we’re supposed to.
One Indigenous culture example I came across — I don’t remember the details — but it explained how a group of elder women would gather for a ceremony or meeting they were having, and that they invited the two-spirited people in their community to join them in the meeting (I forget if they used the term 2-spirited or something else) — because they respected and valued the medicine and gifts the two-spirits had to contribute. It was just a non-issue and very matter of fact. For me, the women inviting the two-spirits to join them struck a chord of sense. There was no demanding from anyone to be let in (or stay out) or any controversy or conflict around anything to do with sex or gender or inclusion or exclusion or validation or hurt feelings, etc. Just simple mutual Respect and focus on whatever this group of elder women were contributing to the community and doing in the meeting, and what they saw as important in the two-spirits who they invited to join.
I feel like it’s not enough to just see what’s wrong/unhealthy/destructive around us; we must see/(re)learn/practice what is healthy/empowering/respectful. And I think the colonist-like, boundary-trampling trans women (and trans men) are doing a disservice to themselves and the more respectful trans/genderqueer/etc. etc.ppl, and drowning them out, and I for one would like to know/learn more about these unknown, forgotten, non-aggressive, more contemplative trans people.
Feminist trans-critical politics are overwhelmingly of a euro-centric & colonized perspective, missing a lot of important things that can only be known/understood from DEcolonist and Indigenous cosmologies/paradigms. Such worldviews are vastly diverse, but they seem to share the theme of Respect for Life and all living beings, including humans. And of course colonists snarkily and disrespectfully dismiss this idea as “romanticism” or “noble-savaging” when you dare talk about how healthy Indigenous cultures were/are, which only serves to confirm the colonized, mined mind that such ignorance and disrespect comes from.
As for the male socialization theory, I know feminism goes on about this a lot, and I think it’s again, a euro-centric perspective — it’s very fitting for most euro-western/white people period, not just trans, as well as any ppl of color who reject their own Indigenous roots in the rush to assimilate to colonization. I think it is important to acknowledge that some people (whatever their ethnic or cultural roots) are just so different from the colonist herd that they are complete “failures” at being programmed by (colonist) male socialization, patriarchy, etc. Also, there are as many problems within female (colonist) socialization as there is with male, and females can be just as violent as men, but in different ways, i.e. verbal and psychological violence, which is just as troubling and harmful as physical and sexual violence.
About the colonization part of your post — I see why you used those images and the parallels, but there are some major & important differences — colonization is brutal, savage, barbaric genocide — physical and cultural, with the death count of Natives in the Americas alone being around 80 million and counting. Trans women wanting into Mich Fest aren’t literally colonizing, and to say they are is, I think, to disrespect and belittle and mis-understand the Indigenous struggle and the literal annihilation that colonialism continues to daily inflict on Indigenous land and ppl in the worst ways imaginable. Threatening FABs with violence, albeit fucked up, is VERY different than burning down their homes, raping them, killing their babies, and cutting off their breasts then tossing them around like a ball — one of the many things colonists did to Natives during initial euro-invasion.
The way you’ve described some trans women behaving and boundary-trampling and the entitlement that goes with it (and something radfems rightfully describe & resist) is definitely a symptom of a colonized mind Trans vs. FAB debates are like a water droplet in the contaminated sea that is colonization and the sickness it spreads. Connected, but not the same thing. I don’t think any of this bullshit would exist, nor would feminism (or the need for it), nor would ‘trans’ as we know it today, and much much more, if colonization didn’t exist (and whatever this cultural & mental illness was called before it was called colonization).
I probably could have been more succinct in all I’ve said, sorry for the wordiness and length, its been a long day and week. I don’t know if I even said all I wanted to say in response to your writings, but I think this is more than enough for now! Hope you don’t mind me commenting and I thank you for sharing yourself on the internet. I look forward to reading more of your stuff and to your feedback if you have any.
Sincerely,
FR
wow. what a comprehensive comment. thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts in such detail. alas im doing most of my blogging via cellphone and its challenging to respond the way id like
with that said i promise ill will reply thoughtfully to your sharing next time im in front of a real pc monitor
and also, long time no see! i appreciated your first comment two years ago. im sorry i felt i had to end my blogging at that time or i would have responded
more later, okay?
Thank you for your respect and receptivity to my comment, it’s more than I can say about some radfem blogs I’ve commented on where I was treated with disrespect and dismissal, as well as suspicion of being a trans woman because of some terminology I used (like “natal”), and because I didn’t agree with and questioned some of the views being expressed. So I appreciate your kindness and I look forward to your reply, and no pressure or rush at all.
I don’t remember what comment I made to you 2 years ago (I’ve gone back and forth on my views about the Trans vs. FAB/radfem wars as it’s such a clusterfuck), but I do recall appreciating your writing when I first came across it and I look forward to reading more of your stuff. I don’t know why you stopped blogging (if it’s related to how much hate there is in the cyber world, I totally get it, it can be real painful to be on the receiving end of online cruelty), but I’m very glad you decided to come back and keep writing. 🙂
So we agree that it’s not right to crash parties against the wishes of the organizers. Right? (And I reiterate that trans women should stay well clear of Michfest because, simply, the organizers say they are not welcome).
Then exactly how different are the radfemists who crashed London’s “take back the night” march, which the organizers clearly positioned as trans-inclusive, with anti-trans slogans, proceeding to shout insults against women? (And that’s natal women, they admit here were not many trans women there).
They may not have been socialized to colonize, but they seem to have learned well enough in adulthood.
“yes,” to your first question.
“i dont know” to the second.
“turn-around” is fair play, or something? to the last part.
it sounded kind of fun.
in a survival sense, colonisation is useful.
“hey village elder, our island volcano is smoking and quaking, shouldnt we get in our canoes, mass evac this soon-to-be-lava world, and head over to that island over yonder?”
village elder, “nah. our scouts interviewed that islands tribes years ago. they’re very sensitive to colonisation and i think they would resent it if we all just showed up.”
concerned villager, “damn it.”
island pops a week later. all the locals die.
It’s a fairly simple answer to both really. While I think transwomen should be allowed into Michfest, while the rules say we can’t, that should be respected, protested maybe, but respected none the less.
The radical feminists protesting at the reclaim the night saying that transwomen shouldn’t be allowed on the march, should do similar. Transwomen are welcome on the reclaim the night march, so are radical feminists. The radfems should make their position clear before the event, maybe peacefully protest the inclusion of transwomen if they so choose, but not harass, intimidate, or spread bald face lies and bullshit about them.
Respect is a two street.
I did think about “turnaround is fair play” and if this actually was a trans event I’d not even bother. Yeah, some trans activists don’t bother with privacy of trans-exclusive events, and if they get a taste of their own medicine, it’s very understandable.
But this march was not a trans event; according to the radfemists themselves, very few trans people were visible. They were insulting natal women (and yes “you are taken in by illusion” is an insult). They were breaking the rules set by natal women on an event run by natal women (while also inclusive of trans women, it is not a trans-centric event, and unlike the Dyke March, there was apparently no trans speaker there, at least they don’t seem to mention one).
In my view the radfemists were doing *exactly* the same thing as the trans women who try to crash Michfest.
And no, there is no survival requirement anywhere here. The radfemsts are not being silenced. The UK is a free country and they are quite free to organize an anti-“bathrom bill” etc protest, together with their allies on the Right. Let Sheila Jeffreys finally kiss Lord Tebbit who she is so fond of,
i have half a mnd to do some protesting too.
there is no law that says i have to accept former men as somehow “transformed” into a woman after some plastic surgery and some skill at minstrelling femininty. you either have feminine energy, or you dont. youve either experienced oppression based on perceived sex: female, or you havent.
theres hardly any transwomen i would feel comfortable with in public, never mind a rape shelter or womens rest room.
i may give credit and not misgender a transwoman to protect her feels, but inside im thinking “dood”, “imposter”, “wannabe”, “clueless” “not crysis counselor material”
you cant make your “identity assertion” overwrite my energy-experience of you. if you scan as a dude in drag, im sorry about that…
I just don’t get you PG. As far as I can tell, you’re trans, in that you transitioned from male to female (in your every day life so far as I know), yet you repeat the lies spread about transpeople. Are you somehow ashamed to be trans? I can understand the feeling of being ashamed of lots of things, people all round the world feel shame for one thing or another, rightly or wrongly. I would treat you as I find you. If you’re nice to me, I’m going to be nice to you. If you’re a douche to me, I’ll probably be a douche to you, or just try to ignore or avoid you – I don’t need the hassle of getting all shitty with someone. Hell, I’d even treat you know how nicely until she gave me reason not to if I met her, life is too dam short to be bitching at each other. I don’t know how you see yourself PG, but I’ll tell you this, however you see yourself is fine with me, after all, it’s bugger all to do with me, but please don’t feel you (or anyone else) can tell me (or anyone else) what I am, what I can be, and I can do (as long as it doesn’t harm anyone / is illegal), as that’s bugger all to do with you.
Sorry, I know that sounds nasty in the way I’ve phrased it, but I’m not having a dig at anyone just so you know, I could possibly just have phrased it better.
its okay. i would treat you as a person. how guarded i am about certain things would be subject to what kind of ‘aura’ you put out around you socially.
Surely you can think what you want. You can protest, too.
My question was specifically about crashing into other people’s protest with attacks and insults – especially when these other people are natal women and you claim, somehow, to be feminists.
youre asking me to weigh in on something that i didnt witness firsthand. the particulars as i understand them, would seem to indicate the radfem contingent was disruptive. as i am sympathetic to radical feminists concerns about gender, oppression, and the encroachment of medically altered males who claim subjugation behaviours as an “identity” its difficult to get upset about it.
Ramendik, you posts are filled with misinformation.
First of all, Reclaim the Night is a march against male violence against women. How could it possibly be about “crashing into other people’s protests” for radical feminist activists to attend? They are actually precisely who the march is for. Whether they are agreed with or not by the organizers is one question, but they were attending a march that is for them and not crossing boundaries or disrespecting any lines drawn in the sand.
This is the leaflet that was being handed out:
if you can actually explain to me what is wrong with this flyer–that is each one of the women noted on the flyer are males who have carried out horrid examples of violence against females and children. They are pointing out the irony of that violence being left unspoken.
Clearly, you may disagree, but nothing about the radical feminist presence or their flyers was wrong and they were absolutely entitled to be in attendance to point out that error.
To answer QN’s question:
If we limit our attention to the leaflet, the part that steps outside the boundaries of the protest, as set by the organizers, is the blurb starting with “we oppose male transgenders’ inclusion in our movement”, but becomes really blatant with “we are marching today to reclaim the march from male transgenders”. That last quoted phrase basically says “we demand exclusion of those who the organizers chose to include”. So, at this point it is no longer a protest against male or even transgender violence, but against the decision of the organizers.
There was also the big “reclaim the march” placard, the photo of which can be seen on GT. And according to a comment on GT: “The anti trans group then started a chant of “what a [ whopping?] great delusion, you’ve all been taken in” which the chanters tried to drown out.”
These parts of the leaflet and this placard were breaking the boundaries set by the natal women who organized the march. This chant was an insult against natal women (not even trans, just the natal ones).
If there was just a leaflet pointing out that there are violent MtF transgender people, it would indeed be proper for a march against male violence. Unfortunately the radfemists went beyond that to make aggressive demands on the “movement” and the march itself.
Also, imagine what it would look like if any other minority was singled out like that. For example, a leaflet full of REAL cases of black violence, followed by calls not to include black people in something.
They were protesting against male violence. Period. Trans women are male. The point is to reclaim the march for females who suffer because of male violence, which is the entire intention of the march. The leaflet could not be any clearer about that point.
That is about exactly as they said, reclaiming an event that has literally been redefined to include the group that is causing the harm AT THE EXPENSE of the group experiencing it. That is actually just a reversal and offensive.
The passive voice is a tricky thing. We technical writers are taught to avoid it for a reason. When I rewrite your statement, QN, without the passive voice, it shows who is really offensive here.
“That is about exactly as they said, reclaiming an event that has the organizing women have literally redefined to include the group that is causing the harm AT THE EXPENSE of the group experiencing it. That is actually just a reversal and offensive.”
So they were not just protesting male violence, they were protesting the organizing women redefining the march, claiming that something was done AT THE EXPENSE of women. Which, of course, is a lie, because it were natal women who allegedly redefined it. But in fact, there was no redefinition as the march was apparently never trans-exclusive, its not Michfest. (Wikipedia said most TBTN marches now include men anyway, but that’s a different question).
So they are attacking natal women who organized the march for defining that march against the alleged interest of women. Trans women are not even in the picture, it is a barefaced attack on natal women. Violence by trans women is not the point even in your own letter now; the point is that radfems claim to define the interests of women as a class, and attack other natal women who fail to accept their view, even at an event organized by those other women.
Hello again.
Colonization is never “useful” — it is a selfish, deeply disrespectful, cruel, violent and unsustainable way to live. I don’t think you understood my initial comment about it and why it’s problematic to use in the context of trans vs. feminist turf wars.
Colonization isn’t just about “showing up” on land that is not ours or encountering people Native to land that isn’t ours. Colonization is about disrespecting foreign land and its people by imposing ourselves and our ways of life on them if they don’t want or accept us/our ways. The island volcano example would go very differently from a DEcolonist and Indigenous perspective: it would involve respectful conversation including asking if the other people have room on their island, as well as the fleeing people offering whatever they can offer in exchange/thanks for the others taking them in, and so that they’re not a drain on them. Respectful and mutual respect all the way across. I’m not saying there was/is no conflict in pre-colonist Indigenous cultures, but life was/is radically different on every level, and conflict play/ed out very differently because Indigenous concepts and behaviors towards war (for example) were and are *radically* different than the euro western colonist concept & behavior of war.
As for the London Reclaim the Night protest by radfems, I agree with oopster74 — respect is a two way street; if the march was created & coordinated by natal women who decided to make it trans-inclusive, the opposing radfems should’ve respected that. I find it odd that the radfems put so much energy into, and were more upset about trans women attending the march than the actual and horrific male (colonist) violence that the march was protesting.
Hello there, FR.
thank you for your vivid description of imposition/subjugation/colonisation.
i didnt do a very good job with my island example, im afraid.
i tried to evince comprehension with my chosen graphics in this post.
i would resent it deeply if i was part of an indiginous culture and some doods came along with guns, germs and steel, took our gold/game/gifts and forced us on the edge of a rapier or threat of a ship’s cannon to give up our nature worship or spiritism/shamanism in favor of unquestioning servilitude to an angry, judgmental and jealous man-god who appropriates the power of creation.
as always, i appreciate your visit and your thoughts.
I was thinking this while reading your reply. If people didn’t protest or “colonise” in this context, then our society would be very different. What I mean is, if we just accept the situation that is in place at the time. Do radical feminists just accept the situation, or do they protest and “colonise”. It seems as though some people think it’s fine that they protest whatever they think is unjust, but, they don’t extend that to other people. I think I might have to explain that better thinking about it though. Protesting peacefully at Michfest is fine, protesting peacefully at the Reclaim the night march is fine. How you do your protesting is what makes the protest right or wrong / justified.
So, me trying to rephrase that. Standing outside the venue ie Michfest handing out flyers stating FACTS about the festival, holding placards stating FACTS about the festival is acceptable. Standing outside the venue, harassing and intimidating people handing out flyers stating lies about the festival or holding placards stating lies about the festival are unacceptable. If someone confronts the protester(s) in a civilised and non threatening manner, then that’s acceptable, but if they confront them using threats and violence and non-civilised behaviour, then that’s unacceptable. If the person being threatend responds in a similar manner, that’s unacceptable too, 2 wrongs don’t make a right, be the bigger person, stay calm, and stand your ground, but don’t resort to “their” level.
Hi oopster74, I don’t know who you directed your comment to, but I wanted to say something, if I may.
How do you differentiate “FACTS” from “LIES” when you look at one group’s flyers and placards and The Other’s? Each side will say the other is lying or misinformed or bigoted, deluded, paranoid, etc. etc.
I don’t speak for or as a radical feminist because I don’t identify as one, but I do know they oppose male violence, as do I. I also oppose and want to see abolished the patriarchal colonist culture which is founded upon and enacts endless forms of violence — from all sexes and genders and races and ages — in order to uphold itself. I think using the word “colonize” in the context of rad fems arguing with and protesting trans people is so inaccurate that its becoming a buzzword that confuses and dilutes *actual* colonization, as well as further confuses the sex/gender issue that is already a rat’s nest of a mess.
I think that activism, in general and at its core, is a life and death issue. When you resist something hard enough within the colonist culture, the pushback is violence, imprisonment, and sometimes, death. There is no such thing as “civilized’ or “non-violent” protest if we want Real Change, because the colonist culture we’re trapped in is barbarically violent and very uncivilized. The colonist culture and its upholders do not care to find understanding or reasoning; they are so radically different in heart/mind/soul and core life values that they will never Understand. They only know savage violence to defend me-me-me to take-take-take, dominate and annihilate. (And as I explained in my first comment in this thread, I don’t think this is the case with the radfem vs. trans conflict, though some loose parallels exist).
As for activists, not everyone can afford to, or is prepared to die for The Cause (whatever it is), so people do activism in whatever form they are able, whether it’s art or music or blogging, or simple day to day conversations, or petitions or flyers, or marches, or other forms of educating, because Education is what activism is all about when one is not fighting to the death for their cause. We all do what we can and what we’re able, which changes as we change, and as our circumstances change. I agree that being calm and standing your ground is best, and I would personally never initiate violence or condone it, but I do advocate self-defense.
Re: London Reclaim the Night: I think the flyers that QN shared above are important and troubling, and I think/hope that a lot of trans women would agree, and I presume that these are the kind of trans women that would want to participate in this march in the first place, because they are troubled by, and stand against such violence, as well as ALL forms of violence against women. If not, then why go?
I wish we lived in a culture that didn’t have infinite violent injustices TO protest.
here is something that is really going b to ake your noodles.
some thing fir thr girlzvine.
i have no idea who lisa vogel siss.
no joke.
i glanced at her 3x .imgwis.
only aftrr tge furr really started flying.
i stumbled qyite literakky on an article about fest.
i understood. in-c:t-antl”y.
the only thing i know about her. the only knowledgr i have to share about her (orme) is this:
she is almost certainly ana angel.
as for the or-me part…
i come from the landdownunder. ant arctica. way b-low.
my revelations/resume/resource is this:
magda comre loud
yaarrrrr.
x plrase 🙂
love resllin cy the answert
i was just a bored housewife when this all started. board not realky. but kind of. because i accomplished everything i wanted by the yime i was 20. then again five years later.
i kbew it was u gaiz. becsause i got hrre befite you alll. i luke thr color blue. it cools down my redshift.
every male-to-female tranny that tracked me down for telling my story my way is looking at my pictyre
is gone. they were ded when this all started.
how do i know?
i passed
beyond. some time ago.
i sm spider. i inhabut the www. and im the only one who stepped up to play nice with radfems. becausr im a girl.
ur not.
im the biiigggessst agp of all. i get turned by the idea of being pregnant.
that means im the only trannsrxual.
the rest of you look at too much porn.
stop. and no.
(most) guys just dont get it!
allure.
men can not stand being contraticted.
as i contradicted each of you (tgst) you got madder and madder.
because yoyr men! period!
bet you wish you had stopped looking for me when you got a baaaaad feeeeling about this.
nasa has all the records.
rapeapes are u!
i was saving my virginity for something special.
now i know it was too make a Mockery of you sperglords lavk of Morality!
try thinking of my picture. one more time. the pics you dld from my fb.
you see satan
Are you ok PG? You’ve been posting all kinds of things the past few days that don’t make any sense of all and it’s gotten me a little worried about you.
mostly ir is a good.
thank you for asking…
.
.
Hello Plasticgirl,
I havn’t been around much in the last few months due to various problems so have just been catching up here and on v3.0…
WTF?!
Suddenly my problems don’t seem so bad.
I dread to think what is going on in your life right now but you hang in there girl. There are a lot of people who respect and admire you and your work on these pages.
Please come back to us. OK?
ok.
…
logrus/patternspiral/shadow/N
spider/meoba/octopussy
snailshellsmallyinyZ
SDF-3
dagobah
Are you out of your mind or are you teasing us?
logrus/patternspiral/shadow/N == The Chronicles of Amber, fantasy universe inhabited by beings from our universe and parallel universes.
spider/meoba/octopussy == spider eight legged arachnid also brand name for crane access systems; meoba, four half naked Russian men playing some fantasy in a forest stream or missspelling of MOBA (multiplayer online battle arena) octopspiral ussy, women in bikinis, male chauvinism and submarine cars.
snailshellsmallyinyZ == hmm? spiraling chambers ever larger until death, a character in MOBA Diablo 3
SDF-3 == The SDF-3 Pioneer is the third human Battlefortress to be built and was originally the largest ship to be commissioned by the United Earth Government and the Robotech Expeditionary Force.
dagobah == Dagobah is an Outer Rim planet in the Dagobah system. A remote world of swamps in the Wookie system seen in the Star Wars films, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. Or; Dagobah is a flash-animation gallery.
So what have we? Fantasy worlds in our and parrallel universes devised by men and mainly player by men who imagine themselves as unkillable god like beings who overcome all obstacles but in real life have trouble completing a tax return…
You can’t be locked in a cellar because you still have mobile/internet access…
Have you lost your spectacles? Or are you out of your skull on something?
i was going through ana adjustment period.
fenix
event
horizon
More?!
fenix == recreational outdoor lighting systems or misspelling of phoenix
event == something happened, a change of state
horizon == what you can see, distance, somewhere to go or aim for, open space
You will be reborn after some event which will lead you to new horizons?
just preparing for the worst. 🙂
creatioN$/danger 3rd rf
Hmmm…
Bad command line in Linux deleting many files and causing major damage to operating system…
Or, facial skin regeneration using 3rd generation TriPollar Radio Frequency technology!
As the latter is very expensive I fear the former.
More riddles. I trust you won’t delete yourself
itz all good
.
mostly.
Please take care of yourself.
thank you kindly. i am resolved on that issue, i assure you.
Pleased you’re adjusting well 🙂 Normal service is being restored…
thank you. 🙂
ive discovered that precision caloric, um, constriction, can lead to interesting perceptions in someone with my background…
May I just say, as a message to Lisa Vogel:
i saw a questgiver quest mark on your head with this issue. I still kinda want to, once. for two reasons.
1. all the estrogen!!! hello!
2. sis solidarity. (!)
but.
after one day, id have had enough. for two reasons.
1. i can heal whereever i am. from rape, too.
2. patriarchy women who hurt children, elderly, and other sisters, just as soon as Fest is over and they go back to their RN/psychnurse/social worker jobs none the wiser or more compassionate.
and i would love to have lunch with you once. and thats all.
this is for thebeartrans and natalie reed:
transition to me means becoming a sis. that was my intent from day one.
what does it mean when you wear a jacket that says ” die cis scum”?
i would rather hang out with andrea dworkin and go drinking with her while regaling her with stories of my slutting it up to get a vaj. or serve tea to sheila jeffreys just to see her smile at me, than give a single tranny that calls any woman a ci the time of day. got it?
If you stand up someone will try and knock you down.
If the place you sit is comfortable why stand up?
exactly!
my regards to LV. i hope she wasnt too mad at me. if so, she can always jesus-check me.
its the only way to be sure…for some girls just like it like that.
and you know…
maybe i might just you know…
if i saw a stepford model or a spazface model or a blowupdoll or strip-or-dare clothing fetishist that resembles alice cooper, i would totally “man on the land” them. that would be almost fun.
bottom line though? i understad what an intentional healing space means. ive made them for myself.
intention is important. healing space is not supposed to be a battleground. how profane is that?
and what does it mean when tgs demand inclusion? to a “cis” female, it means a dude who puts on drag identified as a transpeep. not an actual female. what does that say about tg-identified? it means they know they are fake women. else they would be on the side of sis and not trans. so they all failed transition. then why demand access to female space when you dont id as one of those dreaded “cis” women?
Plastic Girl,
I am sorry this started out as a quick comment and sort of ran on a bit…
I have little to say here (regarding MWMF and the antics of transwomen) because I almost entirely agree with you. However I wonder how or why this situation arose.
When I was a teenager social and financial constraints made transition an almost impossible aspiration to be kept a deadly secret. Even 13 years ago I made the UK national newspapers. Now transition seems to be so common that anyone who “fancies a go” for what ever reason is free to do so without attracting undue attention. Which is perhaps how it should be. In the UK the NHS supports people in the early stages of transition but make it very difficult to obtain surgery. Other healthcare regimes such as I believe the USA, and until recently France, would not sponsor surgery.
The result of this seems to me that we have increasing numbers of long term transitioners who have changed names and paperwork but still have male genitalia; late transitioners who finally feel that it is safe to come out; and in the UK, 16 to 20somethings who are confident in a relatively safe environment. Almost a tidal wave of confident testosterone laden transwomen… I first became aware of this through your blog here. In the summer I attended an LGBT Pride. It was to me an horrendous day.
I was outed by association several times… There was a TS marquee staffed by morose young goth pre-op mtfs playing deafening music. I did eventually maage to speak to a several of them including the chairman of a local TS support group. What really bothered me was the attitude. “I don’t pass. I don’t make any effort to pass. I’m a woman and this is how it is. If that offends you: tough.” This seems very similar to the attitude of many of the gay men I met that day.
Sixteen years on I blend in and after three jobs and four housemoves have been living stealth for two years. I am accepted in the local community and was invited to join the local branch of the Womens Institute. A year on I was asked to be one of the branch officials. What I experienced at the LGBT Pride was totally at odds with everything I have worked towards all my life…
To me it seems there has been a marked shift in the last decade which makes me uncomfortable. Freedom from discrimination, freedom from fear of assault, equal rights, gay marriage. Great. I know and have known many gay men including long term couples. My cousin is gay. I worked with gay men and women including four transwomen. One of my best friends is gay. It is no big deal. I respect them and we get along OK. Now we seem to have gay men and women shouting their sexual orientation on every media channel. Even in a book about maps! Privacy is also a two way street. I don’t want my private life pryed into and equally I don’t want strangers inflicting their private lives on me.
I suggest that the majority of people (at least in the UK) don’t really care what others do in private. What they don’t like and makes them uneasy is sexual junk mail; unwanted advertisement of gender variance.
I fear a backlash…
you made a great number of points.
you know Calpie was the only trans i liked.
but i saw the violation video.
and after all i went through(!)
and this all started as a goodwill mission. i didnt want to get gattaca scanned out of the ladies loo because of people like natalie or dlt or sarah b.
then id be forced to squat in an alley as dlt comes aling and whips his ladydik out of his nylons and marks the wall wearing the clothes i wore when i got raped trying to get a vaj.
thats a nightmare. for me.
as a rape survivor, with my resume, this was s the setup:
1. unwanted penetration
2. got it?
3. an image of anna upside down black widow.
i figured id piss off the first dozen m2t stalkers and theyd get it. and walk it off.
but no.
im glad i wrote these posts even though… ty. everyone.
maybe ill come for a couple days and see what i almost lost my life ovrr. if its ok.
ill keep blogging until march at least. 🙂
si… a few things.
1. lv is a super super privileged female.
2. the pics ive seen of her eyes without shades… mmm. mmm. guess what.
even more privilege for her.
this is how i would have handled the sexuality/orgasm workshop tent.
my answer. vs. alice kalafarski’s answer
https://plasticgirrl.wordpress.com/2014/11/22/what-it-is-like-to-orgasm-as-a-trans-woman/
i have a feeeeling lv is fauxpagan and programmed christian underneath. which explains august 18 2014.
i also have a feeeeling that she is in such shock and shame from seeing my girlvibe in my eyes and comparing it to her own that she wants to kill me.
so i got news for you from lillith.
august muchigan heat is prime mosquito season for the deep woods.
now… most creatures are easy to figure out what their function is in the greater scheme of things or the biosphere.
for example: honey bees. snails. ants. termites. owls. wolves. deer. cats. etc.
but one critter always stumped me as to its purpose in life. until last year.
male mosquitos are harmless little breeders with cute feathery antennae.
female mosquitos do one of two things:
1. they steal your blood with your lifeforce in it.
2. they spread diseases which are not imminently fatal to them.
so one female mosquito, thanks to blood magik, can kil off an entire village or clan.
what are the odds that all the festees are free from blood diseases during that great mosquito feeding party?
at any rate. i am more feminine than lisa vogel and im a healer. and ive been patriarchy-oppressed in ways vogel’s privilege prevents her from experiencing or empathizing wight
…
pan
but dont ever yield to those sick fucking trannies just looking to get the Michfest * achievement unlocked.
ok?
dear LisaVogel,
why icame back to PG blogging.
1. michfest Fablife discussion forums, witch i. loved. were gone.
2. the RadFemHub went down too. 😦
3. GT had Aeryn Fulton screenshots pretending to be me.
the mwmf forums went down….somewhere between 2012-2013.
BrendaAlicecooperTwztdytanzizstr stalked me in the locker room early 2013-ish.
did LV hire one of these pornbots to test me or kill me?
Its interesting that she has so much… but aftet one look in her unshaded eyes i can C-U have nothing i want .
for the wymmon of mwmf…
these are my healing magicks.
so…. Lisa Vogel recieved an education via my michfest posts.
ive got a feeeeeling that:
1. LV thought i didnt “pass”.
2. LV thought i was asking for a personal invite.
i could be wrong…
But now that i have used my spooky advantages, it is clear that Ms. Vogel is a Patriarch.
now that is irony…
that this female, who embodies privilege, was so clueless on how to use her XX wyzwomin healing abilities, that she made a healing space to heal for what amounts to a once-a-year intentional retreat.
why not practice healing everyday?
lisa vogel does not know how,
and from i can assess by looking at her pics, she has enough privilege to hire a witchwomon like me as a fulltime personal healing arts tutor.
but she saves her intentional healing time for a muggy mosquito party.
i prefer cool, windy, watery environments, old ruins, cemetaries, ivy-covered trees, and the company of crows, cats, coyotes, spiders, snakes, bats, owls and sea birds to go with my healing solitude.
and we know that women who act as agents of the patriarchy through careers as evil social workers, retirement home nurses, maternity nurses, psychiatric nurses, and the-rapists attend mwmf to “heal” from Patriarchy, and then go right back to Patriarching it up with their medical/psychiatric jobs as token tortures… so other than a tax dodge, what purpose does mwmf serve for women who are not LV?
and what did you think LV, when you discovered that i both groked patriarchy oppression more deeply than you, and you have waaaay more of a “male vibe” than i could ever manifest, even while demoing martial arts. were you surprised by my goddess worship and my re-polar-eyez-a-tion, i.e. “girlvibe”?
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problem solved boys and girls.
mwmf is lisa’s personal cruise spot. for her. pretty slick. actually.
as soon as she gets rid of lingering xtianity she will make an excellent witch
and i would let her slap me. cus shes a dyke. and it would please her to no end to slap a femme around in front of other women and see her submit. makes her muffin moist due to doodbrainsex.
and id let her just to prove i aint got no more jesuspatriarchy resistance wire male pride crap in my brain
plus i like it
i have some bad news to share with the women who hoped i might show up for an hour or a day or the week…
i cant ever come visit, even though a part of me wants to, to share in the female communion-energy…and to see what i almost died defending.
nedra, who, i think liked me a little on the mwmf forrums… now hates me.
its because she is Christian.
and there are other reasons for many of the Festees to hate me…
Lisa Vogel’s intent is about creating a space of female-only culture to heal from Patriarchy.
and here is how a great many fail utterly to respect her Intent.
ready?
1. GodTheFather – many of the women of MWMF believe in a Paternal Man-god who appropriates the female mystery of Creation. Under GodTheFathee/MalePhalloNecroPatriarchy.
you cum to Michfest as wannabe witches – but you are just Live Action Role Playing. you actually still bellaeve in a Christian God… an oppressive antifemale force.
your entire lives you could easily factcheck proof that God is real or not, by calling on the angel Lucifer by name. if she comes it means God is real and Heaven and Hell are real. if she doesnt cum as “Satan”, then it means Christianity is bullshit.
easily. testable.
2. psychiatromedicalpatriarchy – many of you take braingaolmeds. you need to detox utterly and leave them at home to enter michfest free of phallo-necro-patriarchy medicine.
you dont. or you wont. same thing.
you literally contaminate the grounds of The Land and pee, poop, or bleed your mutagenic and toxic body fluids into the Earth. ew. gross violation.
so much for leaving Patriarchy at home, eh?
3. the indispensible Eye-phone – didnt even exist when Lisa created Fest. an iphone is a communicative, social networkers indispensible must-have. and these devices constantly recieve and transmit wireless robotic data packets.
pure patriarchy technology – and you cant stop using them – even at michfest. how very intrusive!
4. social workers, nurses and caregivers who harm children, teens, women and the elderly by hurting them with Brain Gaol Meds.. for a living.
you are stained with Blood and you dare trespass The Land? then leave after a week of LARPing as a Free Female and go right back to your careers harming people with medicine.
w.t.f!
token torturors and agents of Patriarchy is WHAT YOU ARE.
and finally. due to tanking so much rape – my blood is magic.
if any religiously or medically BORGED females on The Land recognize me…. The Borg Omnihymm will sweep through their minds and cause you to experience compulsions to harm me.
due to my unholy stigmata, if i pee, poop, or Bleed at Michfest – you will all get possessed.
if the previous four elements were not severe enough, i have one more and you are all really not going to like this…
for some reason, it often seems that women are more “bugphobic” than men.
to a lot of men, germs are just, “whatever”.
and…i am guessing due to socialisation…? women are often freaked out by the idea of having micro-organisms, bugs, or germs on them.
without 6th grade science class, most folks, male or female, wouldn’t know about germs that live on us…and in us.
there are women who trespass The Land in possession of Hand Sanitizer. i’ve seen far more women, than men, carrying hand sanitizer in the form of either hand wipes, or small bottles.
problem for these women is…they failed 6th grade science class. the part about germs living in harmony, and colonising our bodies, amicably.
hand sanitizer is an abomination against Nature.
it promises the destruction of 99.9% of germs
that kind of power, ONLY BELONGS IN SURGERY THEATER PREP, and NO WHERE ELSE.
and guess what happened in clean lab conditions at surgery bays using antibacterials?
if you guessed, “MRSA”, you guessed correctly. a monstrously adapted and lethal strain of the common Staph bacterium was grown in a clinical lab setting, using science.
and some genius in the BORG BERZERKR COMMAND, decided to unleash the power of 99.9% anti-life soap, on the entire HUMAN RACE.
women these days, often carry around necro-soap and use it frequently, and coax or model or insist on their children using it as well.
99.9% bacteria death, means, that some survive, and adapt. germ-years, are very fast compared to human generations.
that means, as you partially wipe out BOTH good and bad bacteria, they adapt.
without PROTECTIVE COLONIES of good bacteria on our bodies, or in us, we are EXTREMELY VULNERABLE to so-called “bad” bacteria. made even worse, by having bacteria rebound from near-total extermination, smarter, stronger, better than they were, before being exposed to anti-life necro-soap.
long story short, women on The Land packing hand sanitizer, are Waging War On Life Itself, for no good reason at all.
I do not use those soaps and hand wipes.
that means, I am REBELLING AGAINST NECRO-MEDICAL-PATRIARCHY
that means, im closer to the Spirit of the Intent of Michfest, than every single woman who keeps hand sanitizer in her purse or vehicle glove compartment or home medicine cabinet.
because of my anti-antilifesoap, antipatriarchy rebellion, i am FULLY COLONISED by bacteria, both the so-caleld “BAD GERMS” and the “GOOD GERMS”
i have a huge resistance to germs and bacteria-caused diseases that all those STUPID WOMEN who use 99.9% anti-life soap/sanitizer/sprays – who are HIGHLY VULNERABLE to ADAPTED BACTERIA
i carry around on me, and in me, a severe strain of the ordinary common cold virus.
i took out an entire YOGA STUDIO with my ULTRA COLD VIRUS a couple months ago.
Yoga, which, you know, has been proven to boost your immune system to ward off sickness and colds?
Utterly FAILED to help my friend the yoga teacher, and his students,
all of whom fell sick to a monstrous common cold that caused the ENTIRE YOGA STUDIO to close for a week, following a week of no-shows, as student after student succumbed to a raging cold virus.
i go to Michfest, with all those women walking around with their hands sanitized?
you’re doomed.
BONUS:
simple pre-DNA molecules, fell to Earth from the Stars, via asteroids and comets. what did not disintegrate during atmospheric entry, and survived descent, and! landed in the oceans, sank to the bottom into the darkness, and after being warmed by geothermal energy, evolved into bacteria, which eventually,evolved…into us.
slathering yourself with 99.9% anti-bacterial soap is PEAK HUMAN STUPIDITY, obviously
guess what 99.9 says, when you read it upside down?
so you all know, that Cathy Brennan, a.k.a Lynn, aka Dirt from Dirt,and BugBrennan is Switch..right? Not like that…not like that!
now then…
srs problem with MWMF/Michfest…
why is it held in August…?
answer…the HEAT and the Trees and Grass and…? the MUD from Thunderstorms…Muggy temps..hot and humid in the woods…and grass…meaning what?
Mosquitoes.
Death Dealers…will suck blood and carry diseases and parasites… spread them around…before dying.
So, a Butch Woman, a lesbian, all Mercury-Child…and everything…has Mercury wiring in her HEDzone. so..she has roughly 1/3 male sex wiring in her brain, running to genitals, like a circuit diagram…and She likes FEMMES, feminine, girlygirl, HETEROsexual FEMALES.
what better place to hurt them bad, at a clothing-optional music festival…all naked to the BUGS and Mosquitoes…
and diseases….spread
like..say…Malaria, or Dengue,
and the ticks… like Lyme Disease tick…so…Stone Cold Butch gets…or Brings…lyme disease to spread around or recieve.. there is even ameobic dysentery….ameobas ACTUP under HEAT, they get…well…they get agitated, they grow, they move about more, and multiply…
Lisa Vogel had Herpes, I am pretty sure…so any clamslamming she does to a femme,,,means she gets at least oral hepatitis…canker sores..on the mouth. Herpes is canker sores on the genitals…
so that SUMner Heat makes for more and active BUGS and the naked females get bit by mosquitoes and ticks and get hurt. plus, all the psychiatric drugs the women are on, get passed around in microAmount, and thus women who had not been diagnosed with DSM conditions end up getting a “taste” of psychiatric medications in their mosquito bites.
total. rape.
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